Yes, that is true building huge a factor in a game. My point was that don’t message scripters with a unkown income amount. Sorry if my message was that ignorant. Scripting is a core mechanic is game building but building, animations and GFX are important also.
Hey , i’m Not a scripter , But I Really know How it is. Sometimes I see scripters in Non paid groups That leave , But I Understand That. So much work for 0 robux . Wow. Scripters need of course minimum 40% if they Active work.
I undervalue and underestimate my work pretty hard that I don’t really take offers. I usually take offers on projects that have less experienced or no scripters and that are easy on me to get pat down. It’s like a chronic habit at this point that I’ve ended up contributing to more projects than I can count, yet my wallet is still empty.
Quite recently, actually, I was kicked off the development team of one game because the organization was terrible and they wouldn’t co-operate with me when I gave them pointers or anything - they’d disagree for the sake of it because they didn’t want to see that they were wrong. I’m still in their Discord on an alt and mostly all they do now is insult me behind my back.
I coded their entire game from ground up to an MVP (minimum viable product) and dmore, for which the release date was rushed on. Everything about their scheduling and planning was horrible. I was paid 26K+ total (not even 20%) as if it was a contract job. Now they’re scrambling for scripters they can’t obtain and the staff are having horrible trouble sorting through my work that the game up and died, along with the ability to modify it in such a way where things would work out.
I guess that’s what happens when you kick someone off your team for an apparent “God complex”, or “having pride leak out of your mouth”, or whatever, but don’t keep them and pay them enough to keep your game going.
I’ll be sure to rethink what offers I take from now on and not accept little for a lot.
I disagree with this. Yes, scripters can be good at leading groups and directing people, however builders and other developers can be equally as good. Sometimes a scripter is good at what they do, but not leading a team. I’ve found that a lot of people prefer to be directed or told what to do by others. I do however agree with SteadyOn’s post, but I’d add on that scripters should not underpay the other devs on their teams because they think they deserve more. As someone who has personally been taken advantage of by multiple scripters, I think each dev team should agree on their payouts, not have the scripter decide it for them.
To add on to this, adding members to the team can also have an effect on the other devs, such as builders, UI designers, etc. It’s not always just on the scripter.
I’m not a scripter, but I definitely think scripters should lead the team. Dozens of times I’ve seen developer teams fall apart because they decided to go cheap on the scripter or maybe simply couldn’t find one. I would say in most cases scripting is harder than the building and harder to learn. When the team leader already can script, all they need is a good builder, which I think there are more of in general.
Of course builders can lead teams, but I haven’t seen that work out nearly as much.
Scripters should definitely be leading projects. I’ve tried to do a lot of commissions but the people they hired (or they themselves) had horrible code that would probably need to be rewritten to even get any use out of it. When there are 1-2 scripters leading a project the code is written in a certain manner and there are not like 50 different local and server scripts with no comments and cluttered spaghetti code.
(Also hate doing commissions and they use _G. Grrrr I refuse to work with anyone who uses _G. in 2018)
The game i’m maintaining was built on the foundation of _G and it kills me.
It would entirely depend on the amount of work each developing member of the team must put in to complete their tasks. Every part of development ties together the entire game, that’s why it’s there.
It really doesn’t matter that you say you aren’t devaluing their work when that’s exactly what you’re doing. You say they do just one thing and that’s it yet you also say that you constantly have to change your code, write new code, re-organize and structure things as other members of the team “add” to the project and it’s not as though building, graphic design, or composing music does not require many tireless hours of polishing, revamping, and organization. Given that the work is not sub par and actually requires effort. Which brings us back to being paid by the amount of work put in. If a coder brings more to the table in one project, they should be paid more. If another game relies much more heavily on building than coding, the builder(s) should be paid more.
All you needed to state was that you believe coders are also a vital part of development (which everyone already knows) and should never settle for less than they deserve (which apparently some people weren’t able to wrap their heads around before they read it.)
Actually, I think it’s pretty obvious that I’m not devaluing their work.
Building, UI design and scripting are of course all vital parts of a game, no doubt. That’s pretty much a fact. However, as I said in the OP, I strongly believe that for a large portion of games scripting is a much harder job. You talk about how “building, graphic design, or composing requires many tireless hours of polishing”, do you not think that we, as scripters, must do this too? We do it when we’re writing the code, when testing the code, when fixing bugs in the code, when editing the code for additions to the game by other team members. Polishing is not dependent on the work of other team members. You’re talking about the creation of the initial product, after which, there is very little or nothing left to do on that part of the game.
There are also many different levels of code efficiency, structure, ease of editing and more, the problem is that this is not always obvious to someone who does not code. In turn this leads to scripters who are making code which is efficient, fast, not laggy, easy to add onto and well structured end up getting paid the same amount as a scripter who is not experienced and/ or does not understand the importance of these things.
Whenever I lead a group, such as Polycount currently, I always pay the scripter or scripters in a combination that totals out to a higher pay than me. This is due to my belief that coding is the key component to any technological product.
Along with its difficulty; interning as a C# programmer, I absolutely suffered through programming hurdles.
Typically, I would pay my programmer 55% starting.
This is exactly how it should be and it’s great that you do this, people get defensive because they think I’m saying scripters should be paid more for less work, and I’m not saying that at all. Another thing people mistake me for saying is that building or UI is easier or of lesser quality than scripting - I don’t, it’s just that there’s more in terms of volume to do when scripting than other things for most games. In the end, scripters will usually have to do more work.
I think scripting as the part of a game that stitches each part together. Without building you have no good looking game and without gfx you have no guis and without scripting your game does nothing. Scripting the stitching material in a game. It puts everything you made into one game.
I do think scripters end up doing a lot more actual work than builders/designers/artists. As iRexBot put it, scripting is what pulls the game together (that being said, you can’t pull something together if there is nothing to pull). Design and building are both a lot of work and do require thinking, but you don’t spend hours bug fixing models (except in very rare cases lmao).
Also, I’ve noticed freelance scripting is actually kind of tough, at least for me. A lot of the time you’ll need to work with crappy (?) existing systems, and code in a completely different way than what is your style. So keep that in mind, both when deciding to do work, and when hiring.
Also , for people hiring, when reaching out to scripters, make sure you tell them exactly what you want, and everything you want. If you are unsure, ask one of the scripters you are hiring to explain everything required for x system (if it was to be made by them from scratch).
This is important because:
- scripting is very specific and people need to know exactly what to do
- scripting often has ‘hidden’ work (like backend code that handles giving players items and taking away currency for a basic shop GUI)
- your scripter chooses to do the work based on what they consider the work to be, so you need to be really clear right from the beginning so they make the right decision – I’ve done too much work where it turns out something that seemed simple had lots of things attached to it, but I only found out after committing to the job
This, this and this.
I made it a rule that I don’t edit other people’s code because I can’t take the stress of it lol.
I literally just quit a scripting job last night because the person described something self-contained UI, then later on further explained the idea to effectively add a bunch of backend stuff in the messy codebase of the game.
Thankfully I didn’t spend too much time working on it, and we parted amicably, but you really gotta press people for the exact details at the start heh. That’s where contracts start being useful as everything is made clear right at the start and nothing can technically be added.
Kinda like you, I can’t take the stress, at least not for long, not when the code is messy.
My perspective having knowledge of both fields, but more so with visuals:
"Scripters should lead the team because they do the most work"
Anyone can lead a team if they’re a good leader. And being a good leader means they have a decent understanding of the skillsets they have leadership over. But you also need extensive knowledge of the project. Scripters normally have this because they’re the closest with it, but not always, especially not so much in larger teams / companies.
"Builders don’t have to maintain their work"
Some people are arguing that scripters have to maintain their code. Builders do too, but there’s a BIG difference between asset creation and building an entire map. If you create an asset, it’s most likely done after that. But maps have to be constantly updated to accommodate new features just like scripts. You’re adding cars? Okay, now make sure your entire road system works well with cars, make sure the terrain is traversable, add ramps around to make it more fun, fix areas where cars could get stuck etc.
Usually there’s more maintenance with scripts, but both come down to how well things were planned, and that comes down to how well the project was lead, no matter what skills the leader has in studio.
"Builders don’t have to fix bugs"
Hitboxes, Proportions, Alignment, Symmetry, Floating point errors, Topology, Performance, Aesthetic themes and general level design.
Level design will depend on the game your making, Does it flow well? Is it fair for team based games? Can vehicles traverse it? Layout is super important and should take a lot of planning, just like there’s a lot of ways to code a system, there’s a load of layouts and themes that can completely change your gameplay and audience.
"Scripters by default have way more work than Builders"
There’s confusion within our community to what being a ‘Builder’ means. Building encompasses asset creation within Roblox and map creation if you’re being pedantic. But others might see it as doing everything a scripter doesn’t do. This is why I prefer to represent myself as a Visual Artist for games.
At the end of the day it should come down to the amount of time people have spent on a project efficiently. Work with people you trust to work efficiently on their tasks and if you feel like quality is dropping then talk about it and solve it in a positive way. When I say efficiently I mean in a way that improves the quality of the game and pushes it forward.
I’m going to come back to this thread any time I consider joining/leading a dev team in the future.
(also 100th like )
Switching up the conversation, but generally not only are scripters good in scripting, but most scripters are also multi-skilled(like myself as I also do UI). Infact, scripters will generally be able to smaller tasks not related to scripting.
I’m a scripter myself.
You have a good point.