SCRIPTERS - Stop undervaluing your work!


#103

Idea that scripters should be lead simply because they’re the scripter is laughable. Nothing about being a programmer qualifies you to have any idea of strategy, organising a team, monetisation, design, and everything else that being a lead on Roblox entails.

If your argument is actually “scripter should handle the implementation of the technical stuff”, well yeah he’s the only one who knows how to.

Why?


#104

I think it’s safe to say that most (not all) of scripters have a difficult time collaborating on scripts. Not only because the lack of ability to edit the same script at the same time, but also because two scripters can have different ideas on how to script things. Scripter A sets things up different from Scripter B. It’s easiest to keep their jobs separate so they don’t run into conflicts when trying to set up their ideal models.

On top of that, it’s sometimes difficult to edit other scripter’s work, especially if you have no idea what they’re working on. For example, a scripter on one of my teams got removed, and I had to scrap his code because I couldn’t understand what he had done up to that point (thankfully it wasn’t too much code).


#105

To be honest the main reason scripters have such a hard time is there are no management tutorials for developers. On Roblox scripters are often told what to make but not how and this is rarely how things work in the real world.

To create a cohesive scripting team you need someone who can keep track of the entire project, have the experience to know how to design the code base and be able to explain and convey the requirements to team members. In fact at some companies the most experienced programmer may do no programming at all! Their entire job might just be breaking down problems into smaller ones and planning them out so that other people can then tackle them on the implementation level.

Roblox makes no effort to introduce even basic software modelling concepts which are vital for working as a team. These are things such as documentation standards, er/class diagrams, use cases etc. Now I’m not saying that this is Roblox’s fault, but it would be nice to see a shift of developers using more serious development techniques which can scale.


#106

If we’re scripting UI, the module which handles the health bar, and the module which handles the leaderboard shouldn’t be the same, so thats not really an issue.

You should also have agreed prior how you’re gonna script things, where you modularise, to what extent are you using OOP, etc. If your scripters don’t have that set up, regardless of what they’re working on in relation to each other, you’re going to have a bad time.

Comments, good variable naming, comments, pre-agreed upon structure, comments and some decent comments to top that all off and you should be good.


#107

Knowing how to program does not mean you understand the fundamentals of good game design.

The project manager should always be the person with the most understanding and experience in production, leadership and game design- regardless of what their trade is.


#108

This thread has kind of lost its original purpose and is now just a large debate.


#109

There’s a big difference between software engineering and game design (knowing how to target specific audiences, develop a golden path, build retention, etc). It’s relatively straightforward to tell how well modeling, art, audio, etc are coming along and if they’re close to completion – programs are an entirely different story. A non-programmer (or even a programmer without a whole lot of experience) may estimate a project is 90% complete when in actuality it’s much more behind than that.

I disagree that programmers are best-suited to lead development groups (programming and management / game design are nowhere near the same), but it’s definitely critical that a reliable programmer take ownership of handling software engineering for a project or else no one on the team will have any idea how much work is left or if the scope is spiraling out of control.


#110

Building is cool , but scripting is even more cool !
Building is hard , but scripting is even more hard !
Building gets pretty much paid , but scripting needs more ! :grinning:


#111

honestly, at this point, this thread is just turning into a huge, endless debate. o-o


#112

I may be hypocritical when I say this, but I miss the debate that we had here. Lots of interesting points to take in were raised.


#113

yeah tbh, I’ve been following this thread for a while


#115

I disagree MASSIVELY with your premise. What you’re saying is that scripting is always 50%-65% worth of work which is not true at all. Take the egg hunt for example. Did a lot of programming work go into it? Sure! But the amount of programming work probably did not match up even close to the amount of building that had to go into it. This brings me to the first point: Work Done. Whoever is doing the most work should reap the most rewards. You can’t simply throw out an evaluation and say that applies to ALL PROJECTS. Building can sometimes be intensive, and so can graphics and so can music. It all depends on the project.

The next point Id like to say is that you say scripting is continuous. There are always bugs you need to fix and other things. I agree. Scripting requires your constant attention. What I do want to say is that other people need to do things continuously too. Builders need to update with new maps and new things to explore to keep players interested and happy. A large majority of the time new graphics and new icons are constantly needed too. This is important to consider.

The last thing which I find the most important is RISK. If a programmer is getting paid 10k USD to make a game, should they really be getting the most percentage. In my opinion, it does matter how much work is done but it is all relative to risk. If the person is putting nothing on the line by doing the project, should they really be receiving a percentage of it and getting paid from that? It doesn’t make much sense if there’s no risk involved for the programmer and any other members who are paid to reap the rewards of a project. If the programmer and other members are involved in risk, I definitely believe there should be a percentage involved and depending on how much risk is engaged that percentage should be changed. This stands true for a lot of projects on front page today and continues to be true for anything.

I would recommend any person, builder, programmer, or graphics artists to assess these things when deciding how much they need to be paid to call it fair. Programmers do a lot of work and the majority of the time it is a large portion of a project, but you should assess these things when thinking about joining projects or getting paid via one time payouts.

Hope this helps not only for programmers but any person that needs to assess their worth in a project.


#116

This was about the same effort between the two. Programming is often more invisible to players than art. Egg Hunt had tens of thousands of lines of code.

(Not to discredit the rest of your post, just pointing out that statement isn’t quite right)


#117

Kinda figured it was about equal. Universes are a pain. Most of the time it is not equal between builders and programmers


#118

As the lead builder for the egg hunt I can confirm that the scripting was moderately more. I’m not downplaying the build team either - we did amazing stuff. But I won’t ever forget how Buildthomas even coded us custom tools and plugins to make our builder lives significantly easier. The project would have been a fraction of what it was without the coders - really just a pretty showcase.


#119

Hi! I think there’s been a slight misinterpretation of what I meant with this post - that and my views are perhaps slightly less extreme as they were when I wrote this post. When I said 50-65%, I meant most games, and at the time of writing this post, most games weren’t as much work for the builders, UI and graphics designers as they are now. However, even for the egg hunt, I would still say the scripting work is worth at least 40% of the total game’s revenue.

I think we’re also getting a bit confused over percentage and USD, if the scripter is getting paid in USD, and that amount is high enough, it’s completely reasonable in my opinion for them to agree on no percentage at all. There’s an inverse correlation between USD payment and percentage payment, since as you said risk plays massively into projects, and that’s for every type of developer; a USD payment with no percentage makes that risk non-existant to the scripter, builder, graphics or UI creators.


#120

I definitely agree with this point. I just wanted to give all people a guide as to what to follow to make sure your work is well valued. I think regardless of what happens, any person of a team shouldn’t settle for less than they think is reasonable for their hard work.


#121

I agree 100%! It’s amazing about how when people are trying to hire scripters they will often try to knock your price down with the excuse of “It’s just an easy script”. If it’s really as easy as they think, they should script themselves and not try to hire a scripter and pay them virtually nothing.


#122

3.5 bucks an hour is below min wage. I’d personally set the rate at 2k minimum (7 bucks an hour).


#124

As I’ve been reading, I have noticed quite lot. With my friend (she is really close to me, we do loads of stuff together) we develop games. I had started a game where I did not have anyone else to work with, and my building is quite terrible imo.
After I had found out she was a builder herself, she wanted to join and I was like yes please. Since she’s fixed the lobby, built about 3 new maps (working on replacing the others), and has done a lot with the quality of the game.
She has put just as much building effort as I scripting effort, and we are both very content just making games together. Since we’re super close, we just decided split evenly and we’re both very fine with that.
We don’t care much about the profit, more of the experience.
One Saturday we spent 5 hours working on the game together - one of the best Saturdays of my life.
Only reason I wanted to tell this story was because of everything I’ve just read. Yes scripting shouldn’t be undervalued, and it is a lot of work, but when you’re doing something you enjoy, is it actually work? No. When you’re doing something you enjoy it’s fun! I never see scripting as just “more work”, I am just always eager to see when I can do more.
Ok just really wanted to say all of that, from what I’ve read in this topic. :joy: