What is the perfect grind? - a post about Retention

I’m trying to figure out the ideal amount of grinding in a game and the style of grinding it is so that players don’t feel bored and quit after “beating” the game and so that players don’t feel like they’re wasting their time on something they’ll never get and quit because the process of grinding is boring. Basically, how much grinding is ideal for retention? And how should this grinding be performed?

Let’s take simulators - a simple permagrind with rebirths and whatnot. It never ends. But the abundance requires constant updates and it usually ends up being “live or die.” A short burst of glory, but not enough to make people continue. Because in the end, all you’re really doing is smashing your left click button for that 344th rebirth.

However, I play Minecraft Hypixel Skyblock, where players continuously grind and do ridiculous things for slightly better stats than everyone else. (i.e. getting 1 million+ porkchops for a sword that has 100 more damage than what most people use) Is this because of a competitive economy, trading, and something that isn’t clicking?

But what is fun? In Skyblock, people wished to simply beat up bosses faster than others and get better loot. And ROBLOX players seem to like to beat each other up, so is it a repetitive kill or a roleplay game that hooks players on? Or is waiting what players REALLY want?

Is the grind about something that isn’t turning your auto clicker on or staying AFK? If so, what makes people come back?

Thank you.

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A “Perfect Grind” does not, and can not ever exist because you can’t appeal to everyone, especially with a grinding game. At some point or another a perpetual grind is going to get boring, I provide prime examples of the mobile game WWE Supercard, and a wide variety of MMOs most notably EverQuest considered to be two incredibly innovative games eventually fell off.

To appeal to a wide audience you need to consistently change how your game is played, not so much from a leveling aspect, but from a progression aspect. If your game up until this point has been entirely clickers, maybe throw in a Boss Battle that you’re required to beat in order to progress or other little things like that to change the game every so often. The reason games like Ninja Legends and Saber Simulator do so well despite being perpetual clicker games is because they are continually updating their game with new features, new methods of progression, and other likewise things.

It’s the same with the example you gave of Hypixel Skyblock; it may be a continuous and never-ending grind, but it is one with always something more to do. Not only that, but to get to the next thing in the line of progression, you need to complete a variety of other, new things that you hadn’t done. To attract players, a grind can be continuous, but it can not be repetitive.

TL;DR, To make a perfect grind is to throw a curve ball every once in a while in order to spice up game play and give people something to look forward to.

Sorry for wall of text I hope this isn’t a waste of time to read :I

“Roblox simulators” are nothing new. They’re just a specific type of idle/incremental game, which is a pretty old genre. There’s lots of wisdom out there on the topic if you search for that instead of limiting yourself to Roblox games. Again, idle/incremental/simulator/grind games are essentially the same as MMORPGs. Much of the same wisdom on those topics carry over to simulators, so do some research on how to balance and pace those types of games.

I’m just an armchair game designer, so this is just my experience / two cents. But I think what makes a grind “worth it” / engaging is that there’s constantly some goal on the horizon. My favorite incremental games are Bee Swarm Simulator, Realm Grinder and Clicker Heroes. What makes these engaging to me is the fact that the gameplay changes. Yes, you’re always just “making number go up”, but the ideal strategy constantly changes as you unlock new mechanics, and you’re always seeing the effects of your actions on how fast you’re making number go up

Anyway, this is way too rambly. The TL;DR version is that pacing is the most important. It should be exciting to unlock the next thing, because it’ll allow you to make numbers go up faster in a slightly or completely different way. There should be short, medium and long loops, taking minutes, hours and days to cycle. I would start by designing the shorter loops, for no particular reason other than the fact that if players don’t like the short loop, they won’t stay around to see the medium ones. The shortest “progression loop” should be minutes or seconds, and loops should get longer as the player progresses through the game. E.g. filling your pollen container in Bee Swarm Simulator takes longer and longer because you unlock bigger containers. It takes more and more effort from the player, but becomes more and more efficient. Cutting out inefficiencies like transport time is a great progression reward because it’s visible to the player that these inefficiencies exist without having the game tell them explicitly.

lol my TL;DR became rambly too

My random rambly thoughts

Sometimes the game is completely changed, like when you unlock a new faction in realm grinder. Suddenly there are entirely new mechanics to explore and discover. You don’t know what things do, but it’s fun to try things and learn the new systems. IMO this is also what makes “rebirths/ascensions/soft resets” worth it, and in the beginning should happen often, like the first time around 30 minutes of gameplay. Usually it’s for some pretty large multiplier or entirely new content.

Sometimes the changes can be more subtle, such as spending all your currency to buy 10 more of those things you already have 200 of. Subtle but measurable, and it can be done once every couple of minutes. Because you know the effect, each possible action can be measured against others and this is where deep, thoughtful game play happens on both tactical and strategic levels. Even if you’re not the type of person who creates spreadsheets and stuff, you’ll have some kind of intuition about the systems.

In Bee Swarm Simulator, it’s fun to see the different effects of the bees and seeing how high you can stack these effects before they run out. You’re in part limited by the stats of your bees, but also in part by your mechanical skill which you can hone to some skill ceiling. This makes Bee Swarm Simulator an action incremental. This is similar to the “magic effects” that many incremental have, where the order and timing of various boosts allows for tactical gameplay, as well as seeing many extra clicks you can squeeze out of those 15 seconds of 100x bonus.

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You have to make the grind satisfying, thus beating the grind. Stardew Velley and Harvest Moon are best examples of this. Farming is a grind, but how did they make it fun?

Children seems to like games that never ends, similar to playground games like tag and etc. Children also seems to prefer games that are simple with only one mechanic. Simulator games are popular because of the graphics and sounds. Not gameplay.

Look up many games that never ends and also are suited for children, Minecraft is another, defeating the Ender Dragon isn’t the end.

You asked the wrong community for this question, try game development | stackexchange

A good idea here is to look for games that have grinding as their core gameplay. ARPG’s are your best bet, such as Path of Exile ( Free on steam) or Grim Dawn. You could also look into Borderlands. I’m not telling you to copy these games, but rather take a look in what keeps the player coming back for more and more.

Is it the possibility to make your character stronger? Is it to make it look more visually appealing? Perhaps it is the competitive nature, the will to become better than other people and show off.

A good grinding game relies on a great gameplay. It has to be constantly evolving with the player so there is a sense of progress. If the only thing that changes with time is the number in my screen, I probably won’t continue to grind away. Visual changes go a long way, people need to see that the time they are investing in something is paying off.

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