In response to Developer’s Feedback on Developer Exchange

[Kotojo]

@CheOsana

Nothing against DBZ Final Stand, but if they were using their own IP for the game I feel their success may not have been as great as it has.

Great counterargument! And thank you so much for the fast reply! But I’m afraid that the games are not in the spotlight, as incredible as they are. I think it’s time to take a step away from SnakeWorl, and talk about another wonderful developer and their small team. Obviously my argument wouldn’t be very valid, and could seem biased if I focused on only one individual developer. This is a wonderful opportunity to introduce another developer to support my case, vCaffy, the creator of the very popular MMORPG, Dungeon Quest!

So, it’s time to use some numbers again. We’ll use the same numbers for Vesteria.

Dungeon Quest!:

• Playing: 8,269
• Favorites: 855,076
• Visits: 566.7M
• Created: 9/25/2018
• Like/Dislike Ratio: 365833/396103 = 0.92358048285 OR, 92%
• Developers: 2 Modelers, 1 Owner

Vesteria Beta:

• Playing: 117
• Favorites: 139,333
• Visits: 3.1M
• Created: 9/18/2018
• Like/Dislike Ratio: 35660/36988 = 0.96409646371 OR, 96%
• Developers: 8 Contributors, 5 Artist, 3 Builders, 2 Animators, 2 SFX/Music developers, 3 Lead Developers, and 1 Team Leader

Dungeon Quest! was created only a week after Vesteria Beta. And yet, they have the same team size as Dragon Ball Final Stand. Now, let’s do some more math,

566/3.1 = 182.580645161

Yep, you heard it hear folks.

A game with a team 8 times smaller than another game created in the same month, has over 182 times more visits.

@CheOsana

The biggest discrepancy in your example games is two of those are original IPs where as one is using the IP of something popular the world over.

Your argument seems to be that Dragon Ball Final Stand is able to overshadow other games because of the popularity of Dragon Ball, not SnakeWorl and his games. Yet it in of itself, in the RPG genre, is overwhelmingly overshadowed by a competitor who uses his own IP, Dragon Quest!

@CheOsana

If you want to do big studio vs small you’d be better off comparing something like Bee Swarm Simulator rather than something built from someone else’s IP.

The numbers seem to think differently. I have now changed the variables, yet I still yield the same results. Smaller teams can largely overwhelm larger teams.

@CheOsana

Remember Vesteria and Swordburst both have to develop the world as well and this can be quite time consuming and require extra people to do.

If I am correct, these numbers support that universe the game takes place in, doesn’t make the game what it is, it’s still the developer, at the end of the day.

Thank you again for addressing this matter to me though, now that I have experimented and recorded results, this should be sufficient evidence to disprove the idea of that particular discrepancy.

Please do provide feedback if you discover anymore though!

[vastqud (vast)]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare the visits of Vesteria to another game, considering it is paid access. If it weren’t paid access I feel it would have a lot more visits.

Also, you said that Vesteria’s team had “little to no funding”. This could probably not be further from the truth. Vesteria has had hundreds of thousands of dollars dedicated to its team for development.

Despite this, I still do agree with you that smaller teams with little funding and bigger teams have a relatively equal chance of their games getting popular. Making a Roblox game is a time investment more than a money investment, and as long as you invest that time in making a quality game, the current DevEx rates allow smaller teams to make a very decent amount of money. The DevEx issues arise when bigger teams want to make games on this platform.

[NinjoOnline]

You’re missing so much vital information.

One, Vesteria is paid access, thus it gets less player base.

And the BIGGEST thing you missed (which I thought was clear as day) is Vesteria is it’s own game, DBZ isn’t their own creation. The fact it has so many players would more than likely co incide with it being called ‘Dragon Ball Z’

Your argument still seems to be ‘less developers is equivalent to big teams’

Vesteria is a near AAA level of game, in terms of detail/etc. DBZ is no where near as good in comparison to overall looks and gameplay. Just cause somethings popular, doesn’t mean it’s good. Lot’s of games make the front page with near no effort being put into them.

[Kotojo]

@NinjoOnline

You’re missing so much vital information.

It’s a very lengthy post I know, but I think I might be able to answer all of those using only quotes.
Statetment:

@NinjoOnline

One, Vesteria is paid access, thus it gets less player base.

Answer AND statement:

@NinjoOnline

Look at studios like Red Manta and Vesteria creating these massive MMO games. These types of games could never be achieved by a singular person, or even 2-3.

Answer:

@Kotojo

Dungeon Quest! was created only a week after Vesteria Beta . And yet, they have the same team size as Dragon Ball Final Stand . Now, let’s do some more math,

566/3.1 = 182.580645161

Yep, you heard it hear folks.

A game with a team 8 times smaller than another game created in the same month, has over 182 times more visits.

Statement:

@NinjoOnline

The fact it has so many players would more than likely co incide with it being called ‘Dragon Ball Z’

Answer:

@Kotojo

Your argument seems to be that Dragon Ball Final Stand is able to overshadow other games because of the popularity of Dragon Ball , not SnakeWorl and his games. Yet it in of itself, in the RPG genre, is overwhelmingly overshadowed by a competitor who uses his own IP, Dragon Quest!

Statement:

@NinjoOnline

Just cause somethings popular, doesn’t mean it’s good.

Answer:

@Kotojo

I am in no way nor manner saying that either of these games are inferior to each other, I love the exploration of the cartoony and vastly open world of Vesteria, as well as the action-packed fast paced flight and combat of Dragon Ball Final Stand.

I wish I could summarize what information and data is has been brought up to make it easier to skim, but sadly it is indeed a lot and I don’t think people want me repeating myself too much.

But to try to keep it short, I spoke about Vesteria because you said that was a good example, I followed your lead, as you suggested, and compared it to solo-developed games.

Again, I cannot clarify this enough, this is not a “this game is trash!” “this game is great!” discussion. All developers are great in their own ways and people work hard to make these games. We are not questioning quality, we are questioning success and popularity of games.

People are concerned after RDC, with talk of Roblox being more friendly to large studios and businesses. That Roblox will be flooded with big companies, so that individual developers won’t have any chance to compete. That the front page will be absolutely dominated by nothing but big studio productions made by huge studios. Much like how other media platforms have given priority to big mainstream media corporations, rather than individual content creators.

My case is that this will never happen, that individual developers, can very well still become wildly sucessfully, even in the case of large businesses moving to Roblox in the coming years, because in reality, both sides have significant advantages and disadvantages.

@realhomie86

Am I the only one that is really not feeling this vision of huge teams dominating this platform’s market?

This is what we’re centered around, this is the topic I was addressing.

All I’ve done is captured some data from random front page games, that have 3 or less developers on their development team.

Again, I cannot express this enough, this is not saying all big studio games are worse than solo games, nor is it saying all solo games are worse than big studio games. I love games, and I try to love all games I cross paths with, developers work hard to make these. I certainly don’t feel comfortable calling a game truly bad (unless it uses morally wrong monetization tactics, different discussion entirely) nor do I imply that it’s perfect.

If I genuinely cannot convince you that big studios won’t dominate the platform, no matter how many numbers I try to throw out or how many examples I give or how many names I say, then I guess we just gotta agree to disagree, and just wait to see what the future holds for us.

Thank you very much for your input, take care now!

[NinjoOnline]

Using Dungeon Quest as an example tho, yes, well made game, looks good. But once again, it’s not in the same level as Vesteria in terms of over all quality. There’s a reason these studios are being made. Yes, guys like Berezaa could be millionaires making games on their own, but instead they’ve decided they want to make bigger and better things, that can’t be done by a single person, or small groups. They want to make these large scale games and are putting their own money into these companies and not even seeing a profit yet. It’s about the future and the bigger picture. Yes, maybe right now single developers are fine, but I feel in 5-10 years, the quality of top games will be so massive that a single person couldn’t compete on their own.

[RayCurse]

I feel like you deviated a little bit from the topic which is where the platform is heading and not where it’s at now. In addition, you compare the games purely on popularity. Logically and objectively, a bigger team will always put out a higher quality game than a smaller team given the same amount of resources and time (in theory). When you look only at the popularity statistics, you fail to acknowledge Roblox’s current primary audience, and more importantly, future growth.

Vesteria in my opinion, appeals to an older audience. It has more nuanced game play with more in depth mechanics. Dungeon Quest on the other hand appeals to a younger audience with simpler compact mechanics. The most popular game right now on the platform that also appeals to the younger audience is Adopt Me which also has a relatively large number of contributors and developers. Games like Vesteria are made for what Roblox might be like in the future compared to Dungeon Quest. In addition, you do not acknowledge how much future growth games like Vesteria can have. At the cost of increased development resources and a solid foundation, an eventual fully fledged stand alone MMO game can have meaningful updates for a long time and have a very long life time that isn’t dependent on Roblox. The only reason this hasn’t happened yet is because larger development teams are only starting to emerge and the process takes time. It is clear that Roblox wants to move towards 100+ developer teams and it is also clear that implies moving away from profitable solo teams even if Roblox may not be there yet.

[Autterfly]

I’d agree with this mostly but the issue here is Roblox’s majority demographic are very young, and I’m sure most of the younglings don’t put as much attention to detail in games as we do; if a game has fun or addicting gameplay, you’ll end up attracting a large amount of people even if the quality isn’t pristine.

EDIT: Heck Ray beat me to it by like 2 seconds.

[NinjoOnline]

Doesn’t change the fact that you look back at games 5 years ago and how ‘bad’ they are compared to now. Games like Jailbreak, Meep City, etc. will more than likely die off and be at the same level as games from 5 years ago. Still feel studios and teams of developers will be the predominant future of Roblox

[TaxRevenue]

This is a fantastic point. Ultimately, most people will automatically be in favor of a rate increase simply because it’s “more money”. What many don’t realize, is that there are many potential implications that could arise as a result of having the rates hypothetically increase to such a degree.

Can you imagine how many highly talented programmers with tremendous experience, credentials, and a wealth of knowledge in game development will be joining Roblox to start studios and make highly advanced games if the rates end up being increased by a tremendous amount? It will be even harder to compete, and this is something that we should all think about.

The rates began at $100 per every R$100k, and now a few years later they’re a whopping $350 per every R$100k. I’d argue that this is more than enough.

[wravager]

I’m sorry but AMGs are not cheap, anybody arguing that we should not make more money when we are making the company millions of dollars is insane.

[skasine (yushi)]

He’s not saying we shouldn’t receive more money, he’s saying that the Developer Exchange isn’t the way of making more money, it’ll entice more unfair competition rather than good. Maybe real world credibility could pitch into other forms of monetization would help. Roblox Staff receive real world support; insurance. Maybe Roblox could consider a similar concept (an example which could be merits/boosts) for developers of the platform rather than increasing rates.

[KaisKane]

As a small two-man team (me and my wife), that recently released our first game (Candyland), I definitely think the rates should be increased for at least the small studios/developers. After Roblox takes their cut we don’t even have half of our rent. While Roblox is not our only source of income I think this makes it really difficult for small studios to commit to Roblox, expand their team, and make better games.

Of course, I believe that Roblox deserves their cut because we understand that they have costs to cover as well. I’m simply saying that if a studio is making such a low amount of income they could at the very least significantly increase the devex rates to allow us, smaller studios, a chance to sustain ourselves.

[thomasviggorollmann]

@DEMOLURKS

it’ll entice more unfair competition rather than good

Sorry if I sound rude here, but to be quite frank and realistic, I don’t remember competition ever being “fair”

[skasine (yushi)]

I mean, not fair, just a lot more difficult especially when competing with people who have Master’s.

[nenen]

I guess that’s the issue in the end.
Does Roblox want to compete professionally? So that Developers stay on the platform as the way to put bread on the table (or buy the table), or are developers who really want to make this a profession have to look elsewhere?
I guess I’ve always argued from the side that Roblox does want this platform to be the real deal, but perhaps not. . .

*Sigh*

I did a literal sigh while writing that.

EDIT: I’ve watched some of the videos now, so the below thing isn’t strictly necessary.

I wish somebody would write up a written transcript of all the DevEx and Monitization stuff in the RDC videos, because I’m not sure I’ll be able to see them for a while

[Automationeer (Eleanor)]

Roblox want to be treated like a real platform, to the point David Baszucki said that he predicts a large-brand official-game is made on Roblox in the year.

[5m0h (brendiepants)]

With all of this information summarised, I still have a question that is semi-related to the original topic:
Why is there a marketplace fee on game-passes?
I mean, I understand the reasoning for marketplace fees on collectable items, it’s so the market stays up and people don’t sell their items for 10 robux constantly, but now in 2019, the system of marketplace fees on game-passes seems arbitrary. I feel like it would be a lot easier to remove the marketplace fees on game-passes then change the DevEx rates, yet both have similar outcomes.

[zeuxcg]

I think people who are talking about Masters degrees don’t fully understand how and why Roblox works, and perhaps the role of education and self-directed learning.

As a rule of thumb, external “professionals” who have “experience” are fundamentally penalized by a simple problem: they don’t understand the audience. You guys do. This makes all the difference in the world.

Also, the words above are quoted because…

• having shipped a game on another platform doesn’t uniquely qualify you to be able to do it again. People who have been developing games on Roblox for years are no less “professional” than people who work for gaming studios.

• experience is not easily transferable and is not universal. It’s so rare to have people outside of Roblox design, build and code a game and have it be successful - Roblox is full of these examples. Roblox development is a skill that overlaps with many fields but isn’t subsumed by any one, including “indie game developer” as classically understood.

[Kotojo]

I’m so glad someone, a staff member at that, agrees with me!

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That’s exactly spot-on what I said, but said better.

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The individual people experienced on the Roblox platform have huge advantages over big companies transferring over to it.

@Kotojo

New Developer:
Advantages:

1. Fandom/Following/Community from their previous platform. If Ubisoft makes a medieval game on Roblox, people might be more likely to try it because they could remember For Honor.
2. Funding from previous games.
3. Whole divisions of trained programmers from their old platform.

Disadvantages:

1. Players from last platform may be reluctant to download the Roblox launcher, having never heard of it or been involved with it. Probably will beg for a For Honor 2 on Steam.
2. Won’t be able to make any real revenue until they gather at least 100,000 robux AND have a main account that fufills all requirements.
3. All employees will have to take the time to get used to the new language and engine, Roblox Studio and Lua.