Rant about public recruitment category

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#1

This is just a bit of a rant about New development teams and people using the recruitment category with completely awful posts.

‘Project Leaders’

Ok, I realise there are some legitimate project leaders here, especially within higher tier games, and ok, I admit. sometimes they deserve 5% of profits. whether its because of investment or previous reputation and experience they are going to utilise to help the project. HOWEVER. that is not the type of project leader I’m targeting here.

What drives me crazy is when somebody sets up a development group, broke, and with no development experience, then demand 50% of profits just for the idea. This is stupid since an idea is worthless if there is nobody to bring it to life. Still want something for your idea? I recommend utilising in game perks / admin or maybe 1% of profits, if that; because being real here your just going to slow down development from lack of knowledge.

Awful payment

I’ve seen a few topics addressing this, and this one also sort of links in to previous. So you may see a bit of iteration here. Formal Roblox businesses are excluded from this as they work differently.

My first problem involving this is percentage payments to Animators and UI designers, Disclaimer this is not insulting your work just saying how it is these are one time commissions. once they have done their job they most likely will never have to touch the game again, so why are they getting a percentage?

Only real exception to this if if the designer is making UI animations, and doing a fair bit of front end programming in which case I would deem them worthy of a percentage payment if they stay for game updates, the payment however I believe is volatile depending on how much contribution there is and the skill level of the designer.

This is not to say they should not be payed, just they should be payed in robux instead of a percent. If no funds are available then a max of 5% for a UI designer, and maybe 1-3% for an animator.

Paying programmer to little, A programming department should be getting at least 40-70% of profits between the members. 20% for a programmer is like asking someone to make your entire game for 20%, since without scripts, most games are useless.

However I also feel Modellers, map builders, terrain makers (I’m a programmer to me its the same job, no offence) are heavily undervalued. It is them who give the player their first impression of the game and keeps them in wonder as they roam around your game. Yet I see them getting payed 10% of profits. From my perspective they should at least be getting 30%+ for the work they do.

No backup payment

Ok, slightly less significant point, and this is more of something to refine then a core fundamental. It is always good to put a bit of cash in backup payments for your developers since it reduced developer disputes (programmers getting angry at builder saying bad map made game fail for example) and gives a bit of reinsurance the the developer.

However, here is a slightly controversial point is Do not give too much backup payment. Or the developers may try doing the bare minimum as they feel they are getting a large payment either way.

Contracts

This is something i’m seeing more and more on the dev forums since I have been observing it, and once again I wish to exclude official businesses from it.

I just find this incredibly amusing to find new developers creating contracts thinking they stand for anything in order to maintain a sense of control over team members. Yet they should really look into what it takes to make a legal document, then enforce it before they threaten it. Because believe it or not that programmer that just scammed you in Australia isn’t gonna be flying to England any time soon to stand in a court so you can legally charge them.

Greater detail about the legal process for contracts

Bad investment pitches

From the perspective of someone who invests in several genres of games there is nothing more annoying then seeing a newly founded team of inexperienced developers looking for investments for the follow reasons:

  1. Asking for un-needed amount of money is becoming common on this forum, with many asking for 200k+ Robux to make a simulator and run ads for it. With 200k robux an investor could commission people to make an identical simulator and keep an 100% share of profits instead of a 10% share.

  2. Expecting people to invest while no progress has been made and there is nothing to make the project seem like It has a guaranteed chance of success is also rather annoying, if you are asking someone for large amounts of currency they should at least see how high quality the game is, since after the investment has been placed you may do an awful job at creating the game.

Exceptions to this is if the person asking for investment has previously led successful projects in the past and knows how to create and run a team. However since most successful developers will not need investment this rarely applies.

Bad / inaccurate information

This one is arguably more generic to all the posts in the category, not just the ones from inexperienced owners and is one of the most filtrating things to encounter from someone applying / taking a job of the category.

Just to be clear i’m talking about lack / inaccurate payment information and a large number of tasks being added to a workload

Firstly, One thing I see very commonly nowadays is you have to DM and Discuss payment privately. I personally don’t see any reason for this, other then it being a waste of both the employer and employee’s time. If your paying a low rate and are handling this information in this way to avoid negative replies, it isn’t going to give you any more success with the actual employment of developers.

Secondly, My personal least favourite out of all the aforementioned topics, providing inaccurate information on commissions. Not going to name any people here But if you are hired to make a currency datastore for 10$, you complete it, then guess what? you need to make a shop to! So through gritted teeth you make a shop. Then when you go for your pay check, once again, Now you have to add developer products and a system to earn the currency, until you get to the point where there are so many tasks you just wouldn’t have taken the job if you had known about them in the first place.

The second one is also technically scamming and causes a ton of frustration between both the client and the user. If you are hiring someone

Make EVERY SINGLE TASK very clear in the original job description

Too many team members

Another one I definitely see very commonly among a. Very new developers, B. people who have no developing skills is hiring say 15 people to make a very basic simulator.

This has a variety of issues which I shall now state:

  1. Firstly, In the case of programmers (you guys will understand me) Do you know how hard it is to read code written by someone else? It is like trying to read a book in a different language. Slightly less extreme in the case of builders (once again being generic to people who do stuff with meshes and stuff). From what ive seen most people build in a different style and having 3 different builders may make your map look a bit like you pulled together 3 things from entirely different games.

  2. Payment, answer me this, what team is going to be more motivated. the team of one programmer getting 40% of revenue, the team of 8 programmers getting 5% of revenue? Sure you would think they would get more work done but at the same time they are going to be earning less so may care less.

  3. Unfairness. If you give two developers with the same pay a workload to split between them you will almost always find one will do more then another and one will try to get away with tagging along on the more experienced developer. This may result in disputes later on and frustration from the developer who is working harder.

Conclusion

I will be updating this project if any new points come about.

I imagine many points in this argument are heavily disputable it is a rather generic view from me for what I have seen on the forums, If any body has some well reasoned disputes to any of my points I would be delighted to hear them :slight_smile:

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[CANCELLED] Looking for a Builder, Scripter, Environment designer, Logo designer, Animator, and UI designer
[STRAWLESS SCRIPTING] Hiring a Scripter [CLOSED]
#2

Well, for one thing I have to say this is one of these things I would like to talk about.

Which is true I don’t understand it much but, I think I why people do this 1. most people just want there game done fast and easy. 2. Most people just think that by hiring more people more ideas and or more people would join there game. 3. So people just don’t like how other people made there game so they mostly hire other people to help which I really don’t understand why people would so this.

Well, for me I don’t code am learning to even learning to it’s hard you have to think that if it’s hard making a code it’s EVEN harder learning how to read someone else code, for builders it’s hard as well (but not has much as for coders). I say this because builders them self’s have to think of a idea and try to make it really for what I seen it’s hard because, something is all way’s going to turn out wrong and or someone does not like what you made, it goes both way’s for Builders and coders. But I see what you mean about to much Dev’s on One Team people have different level of skills. Somethings are easy to do for some people and some are not most people.

Well, for Ul designers they have to make up the style of the game I do think they should get pay still but not has much as a builder or coder because like you said “Once they have done there job they don’t touch the game”. This is because Ul designers really just make up the style they don’t really have to work has much has a builder or a coder. However, I think that the Ul still has to have some still into knowing what they are doing you don’t want a Ul who just lazy and buts whatever they want.

Now, for some key things with this Ul or Coder or Builder needs to have skills to know what they are doing if you want to make a game You Need these 3 people you don’t need about 10 people on One Game they can case people messing with another people builds or codes, People get more people because they think there game will come out fast this is not the case, No matter how many people you get it still takes time because, people will have new idea with the game. As for Payment I think everyone should get payed Based off of these things: How well they work within the team, How long they have been making the game, How you think they did (I might be work about some of these things but these are some of the things people would really base there payment off not how much the person wants it would be based off of how they do.)

I hope this helped fix on somethings you think is wrong with in this post.

Have a great day, :grin::grinning:

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#3

The intentions within this post are definitely felt, and I cannot help but to agree with nearly all of the points you make. However, I feel as if the post hasn’t been written in the best way it could’ve been done in. I’m not someone who likes to sugarcoat stuff (i’m not saying to hide what’s obviously wrong), but it’s within the ranting manner you present your ideas that is quite off-putting.

You literally describe your post as a rant in itself. It’s good to see that you give your own POV throughout but most of the post remains within a negative tone. Through my previous experiences, negativity within posts isn’t generally appreciated here, and your post seems to be implicitly targeting those who have done those things in their own posts in the past.

If you want to offer assistance to new developers, then that is entirely up to you. However, I don’t believe this post is going to fix anything going on in the public recruitment category as it is public after-all, and if you think the quality of offers is a concern, you have a right to simply ignore it or reach out to those OP’s privately.

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#4

I was more using this to say everything NOT to do when structuring a team, it was intentionally written in this way since I intend to use it has reference so I do not have to constantly re-iterate points.

Yes, I can kind of see the negative tone. however as stated this is more of a rant then a resource for what I have seen so far.

#5

I am not saying UI designers should not be paid, im saying they should not have percentage payment.

This point I tried to address within this

Starting to see that doesnt answer all your points, will edit post :slight_smile:

1 Like
#6

I know what are trying to say but ya if people do pay people buy this I think it should at least be fair for everyone, I know you are not trying to say they should not be payed but should not have percentage payment if you are say then that’s fair because if you are a coder and or builder you work harder then someone doing Ul I have to say this post really should already be made and I love this post because how people think about this.

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#7

kinda a rant

IMO people seem to think that the category is just a quickfire, cheap and easy way to get a bunch of people together to make a game, with the sole intent to make YOU (the op) bank.

Your first paragraph is very much true in a sense that a lot of people seem eager to run/lead projects but at the same time don’t want to put time, effort and funds into making it actually happen. “Hi, I’m looking to pull together a team to make a new simulator game! I have no progress yet, my ideas are the same as everyone else’s and I need Investors, 3 builders, 2 scripts and a UI designer! Oh…and also since im the leader i get a majority of the profits”. I would never recommend someone apply for a position to where the leader doesn’t bring something to the table scripting or building wise. Obviously this is a bit exaggerated but that’s the vibe i often get.

I guess just a bunch of the posts come off as unprofessional and often written by someone who lacks understanding of what it actually takes to produce a decent product. Someone who just expects results. Hooking young developers in with big percentage promises and large sums of robux without any mention of a contractual agreement.“Looking for investors! Get a lifetime percentage of 35%!”. Personally I don’t think things like this should be allowed on the forum. Idk man, maybe I’m just triggered. :slight_smile:

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#9

I stated several times im only talking about the general amount of people on the category, most who whom are under 18.

#10

Furthermore, unless a contract is written by a lawyer, agreed upon by both parties, and filed officially it’s completely meaningless. Even if they wanted to waste their money on a flight - and a lawyer, it would be a moot point.

On top of that, you would have to take up the case in an international court. Since the charges would be petty (not over 1,000 dollars), the cost of a lawyer, flights, and bookings would end up losing you thousands of dollars assuming a lawyer even took your case and it wasn’t thrown out of court.

Rant aside, this is a super helpful (and accurate) post. It needs to be read by all new members - these changes could seriously clean up the category, and though I know that these problems will never disappear I sincerely hope this can raise awareness - especially for those who are overly-zealous for starting new projects.

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#11

I always find it funny when I see groups recruiting builders before they even have somebody to program the game. There is no point building any assets if you don’t even have a minimum functioning game, to test the concept and work out potential mechanics before you put the throttle down on development.

Easy to fluff around and talk about what you’ll pay people, hard to produce something that shows the viability of your game. I will never work for anybody who can’t produce an implementation of their vision. You don’t need programming prowess to make a very basic game concepting your idea: for this reason I consider an experience in Lua essential to anybody who wants to lead a development team.

I have nothing against 3D artists—I actually think it’s way more impressive than programming (I am not artistically inclined). However, you can have a fun game with programming but no assets. If you have assets and no programming, you just have a showcase (which nobody cares about playing).

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#12

This is a topic I’ve addressed many times in my head yet never bothered to address it publicly till now. I cannot stress enough how poisonous this bias is for start ups. What developers fail to acknowledge is how not everyone is intended to be a developer in this industry. Marketers, agents are valuable roles in the gaming industry however on Roblox that isn’t the case.

Unknown Marketers, agents are disregarded as a liability to the project whereas known marketers are praised for their contributions. The unfortunate truth is how we’re living in a time period of where the majority don’t want to grow with another to instead only collaborate with the known. To better address my point, I leave you this with this optional video.

Result of minimal to 0 deposable funds or unsure of the projects success. Long term it’s a terrible strategy as it’ll cost you more after that particular project is proven to be successful. Keyword that particular project, implying not every project will be a success. Every dollar invested into the project isn’t guaranteed to be compensated if lost, so once you start compulsively distributing %’s with that particular person you may as well consider keeping the payroll % based rather than changing your mind for future projects. If project X’s % gives a UI designer 100,000 USD than project Y’s UI will cost you at minimum 100,000 USD or you offer them % again which than becomes a cycle you can never escape unless you’re foolish enough to overpay their worth.

If the pattern continues than unavoidably you’ll face bankruptcy to an extent someday, you can’t be successful 100% of the time.

It isn’t just solely 30%, either hourly rates or compensation is requested by the modelers which is on average 10-50 per HR or a fee of $100-$5,000 (robux equivalent)

Underpaying developers is essentially giving them free income as you’re basing it off of morals. NOT everyone has morals nor is it obligated of anyone if a contract doesn’t specifically state it. Furthermore if you can’t afford or lack the essential knowledge to form a contract than tough luck because without it you’re screwed over.

If you think known developers are above this practice than you my friend are a naive fool as I once was! I’ve been deceived by four known figures within this community, 3 of the culprits gave me quantity when I specifically requested quality whereas only 1 scammed me. I cannot disclose the culprits identity publicly as we’re not allowed to discuss or mention legal matters with anyone that wasn’t involved. WHO actually believes a thief will correct their OWN mistake willingly? That’s pure idiocy and by far the worse legal disclaimer I’ve ever read. For those who believe I’m paranoid, read the following quotation;

So if someone hypothetically decided to backstab you after gaining your trust, it’s your fault for not taking the extra precautions. Roblox has this mentality; We don’t care even if your mistake puts you at risk of bankruptcy, it’s your problem not ours.

At minimum legal confrontation should be taken into consideration, at least allowing their legal team to walk us through the proper procedure would be greatly appreciated but that isn’t how the world is. The world is a cruel place where you can’t trust anyone fully, you have to always remain on your guard for the worse possible outcome.

I’ve got no issue with this, what I’ve got an issue with is how people automatically assume everyone can afford what competitors are offering.

My story

I’m desperately trying to lift my project off the ground on a mcdonalds wage, living on my own and practically starving myself to death to compensate what little income I average. I don’t have a stable rate of hours either, so I’ve got to strategize everything I do including who I can commission and who I can’t commission. By that I’m referring to the amount I receive not the pay itself, it would be foolish of me to pay $100 for a single asset. Not a map, but an asset as in a sword or a vehicle which is what I commonly see on the forums. Yet to expect me to pay 1,000 USD for only 10 props is essentially asking me to kindly screw myself.

Than there’s this mentality of “Don’t bother hiring anyone if you can’t cover the industry standard”. LET me tell you of this “industry standard”… it doesn’t bloody exist. YOU set the price, WE buy it. There’s no higher up organization establishing the pricing, larger corporations pay those rates because it’s pocket change to them. USD is so inflated to the point companies can underpay the masses without any detection. Not everyone is a successful company, however everyone is capable of reaching that point in their life if you simply GAVE us the opportunity to show what our worth is.

Everyone had at one point started from the bottom, even those born into a wealth had an ancestor that risen up from poverty. Nobody is born into riches without facing hardship, please understand that.

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#13

I (as stated several times) was trying to base the project off a new development team with an average of about 10k in funds. Hence why most the payments mentioned were in percent and a threw backup p payment in there. :slight_smile:

#14

Kindly do not misquote me or explain my quotes wrongly.

It is not your “fault” if you get scammed due to lack of contract (or even in presence of one), but it is your responsibility to handle arbitration (if you need the dispute resolved). Roblox does not make deals between developers so Roblox is not involved in the arbitration of those deals. They are not liable to fixing messes they didn’t create – it’s your mess.

No, they don’t have to do that, because they’re not involved as a legal party in any deals you make. Roblox’s legal team is not large enough to deal with all the disputes between developers that happen in this community of teenagers and young adults. Nor would I as a developer want Roblox to waste money on trying to mediate in these – they have more important things to be spending people and money on.

You should hire a lawyer if you need legal help, like everyone in the world does. Roblox is not a babysitter for everything development.

9 Likes
#17

Don’t target project leaders because yes, some may be taking too much equity but at the same time, some project leaders are financing the entire game themselves including advertisements, sponsorship. Project leaders deserve a nice chunk of equity because they are risking their earnings in order for the game to be successful. You can program as much as you want but if you don’t have the capital to push sponsored ads, seek out youtubers for advertisement, your programming efforts will be on hold until you get that capital. Now seeking investors is against the ToS too, so sink or swim buddy.

2 Likes
#18

I absolutely agree with this part of the rant. I always have people come to me for commissions saying they want something simple like a sword and it just totally turns into a mess of making goblins, different fantasy weapons, and a bunch more crap I wasn’t told about when I was hired. It honestly frustrates the heck out of me. I also find that some people don’t give much detail on what they want which is another pet peeve if mine. People will mainly just say “make me a cool sword” or “make me an old looking lamp” and then they make it hard to get more details out of them. Doing this makes it much harder and unnecessary for the developer to tell what you want from them and it makes it harder to make the product perfectly how imagined it. I honestly wish people could just be a little more descriptive and stop giving vague details about what they want.

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#19

You have the choice to decline if you feel like the job you’ve taken on is supposedly not what is was described as. I am unsure why to rant about it, use common sense…

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#20

There’s a big distinction between “project leaders” who contribute significant value to the game (whether this is as a result of capital or overarching game design and management of a large team) and the classic “idea man.” Project leadership should not also be limited to capital, it should involve an overall consideration for the product especially in regard to intentional game design, and managing a team of programmers and artists to achieve a harmonious implementation of the design. This is something which is hard to achieve if you don’t have development experience, and the success of a product is so much more than the extent of capital behind it.

2 Likes
#21

Capital is still a very weighing factor, considering that I come from a background of investors. Yes, having good managing skills does result to an effective team of developers but capital just ensures a higher chance of success because Roblox accepts robux as a way to pay for sponsoring ads, not your background story of how the game was made.

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#22

I suppose it also depends on the design of your game. A project like Vesteria and its development team, which is a huge and thoroughly designed project, arguably requires less “capital” (in the form of advertisements and sponsorships) on the behalf of a team leader and more management and directon of game design, compared to a more ‘short-lived’ game such a simulator, with a more limited scope that ultimately thrives on its potential to reach as many paying players of its audience as it can (compared to a larger project in which the playerbase and content develops slowly over time). If the project leader of a team like Vesteria was concerned only with monetisation and capital, it would flop terribly, while a team that produces smaller-in-scope games such as simulators would have the potential to do quite well under such a ‘project leader.’

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#23

It is really challenging to get a game lifted from the ground up nowadays because of people who have too much money and makes the barrier to entry so much more competitive. I launched a 100,000 sponsored ad once for a game I was investing in, it failed because my competition was pushing 5 times more in financing their sponsorship campaign. To me, a lot of robux is just an extra sense of security because you can really influence Roblox’s current system to be in your favor.

1 Like