ROBLOX need to hold scammers on the dev forums more accountable

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#1

Explanation

To protect users privacy and to abide by the guidelines, I will try to be as vague as possible, while still outlining my point.

A while ago, a user posted a building portfolio. I went through his portfolio and he seemed legitimate, no red flags. I contacted him to create several assets for me, and he was friendly enough and agreed to create some assets if I provided payment first. I was alright with that, so I told him to stand by while I asked my partners if they thought it was alright since it was partly their money.

While waiting for their responses, I went through his portfolio again and noticed a flagged comment. In it a user stated that they were the ones that owned the assets and that the user stole them from him to use on his portfolio. He provided several links and screenshots as evidence. That comment, which was not attacking anyone, rather just pointing out some embarrassing facts, was flagged (I clicked to view it), and the “scammers” portfolio was not. It was the only indicator that the person was in fact, not legitimate. I do not like to think what might have happened if I did not look at his comment, or if the user chose to abide by the guidelines and not call him out for stealing. I would like to point out however, that about a day later the user’s portfolio was taken down. But, it still would have been too late for me if that user did not submit that comment providing proof.

So what’s the problem? The “scammer” was taken down after all.

I acknowledge that real people, not bots, moderate this forum and that a handful of people can only do so much, so quickly. My point is, people’s comments that politely and patiently inform people of a potential issue, while providing substantial evidence, should not be removed. I do not know how many other people were cheated by this user, or how many, like myself, almost lost quite a bit of money. I know Roblox is trying to keep this a friendly place, but preventing people from warning others about stealing before it’s too late should not fall under “attacking.” Roblox needs to take into consideration the lesser of two evils. Either prevent a scammer’s feelings from getting hurt, or prevent people getting cheated out of their hard earned money. What that user that warned me did was technically against the rules, but it should not be. Until Roblox can find out a way to quickly and efficiently remove illegitimate portfolios, we have nothing but reviews to depend on if a person will provide us real service or not. Roblox should not be able to take this away from us.

So what’s your solution?

Just like many other sites where freelancers can advertise their work, people’s reviews, even negative, should be counted as legitimate contributions to people’s portfolios and posts. The dev forum is not a place for young people to just hang out and have fun, it’s a place where people of all ages create entire substantial businesses, and reviews, are a huge part of that.

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#2

We used to allow those on the site but people would start arguing with the OPs in the threads which would result in spam and bumping posts that aren’t in favor to those who actually needed something whenever it was in the (new deleted) asset marketplace of the recruitment/portfolio subs. As much as would love if there was a way to have certain legitimate scammer allegations follow the user without having the criticism removed, unfortunately it’s not possible here.

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#3

I think with the new marketplace for packages, there should be (or it already exists, please inform me if it does so I feel better about it) a reputation based on purchases. Free models are another story, but for paid assets, I think a review by the customer and perhaps a simple rating system would help to identify trustworthy sellers in the case of a private deal. I doubt scammers would spend money just to flood the reviews, but even I think a per-customer rating system would be helpful to raise reputation for new creators and solidify existing ones.

If such a system were to be implemented, I think people would feel a lot safer having a chance to look at the reputation of the seller before acquiring specific services or a specialized offer of some sort. Might be more difficult for scripters, but overall I think it is a good stepping stone.

#4

That’s a good point. No matter how politely put, a user calling out another’s improper actions will always cause arguments. But if it comes down to that, I would much rather prefer arguments than people getting scammed. And if Roblox is just as active as always here, I imagine such pointless posts (besides the one pointing out another’s scam) would be removed quickly.

Nevertheless, I’m sure there is a way for Roblox to have real, honest reviews, while still preventing flamewars which I agree are detrimental. Perhaps a separate place to post reviews, and a separate place to just post comments. Reviews would be unable to be replied to, and must be accurate, and have evidence (or they would be taken down as slander). Comments would just be what we have now, mostly complimenting the work someone has down or asking questions.

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#5

It’s one thing to say that Roblox should be held more accountable for plagiarism but it’s another to actually identify what is genuinely plagiarism or not. That’s why you should flag a Collaboration thread if you believe the OP is involved in this and contain credible information about the circumstances.

Posts calling out OPs, even if it’s to raise such a comment, can and should be flagged. Disputes between developers should be resolved privately or you can get moderation to investigate the circumstances. These kinds of posts are not constructive and derail the OP.

There is a PSA explaining what kinds of responses are appropriate for Collaboration threads which is rarely followed. One of its statements is that disputes are not okay on public threads.

Bringing the general public into a private matter is neither professional nor appropriate.

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#6

Flagging is great, but as my post explained it is not fast enough. I had already contacted the guy and was on the verge of payment before his post was taken down. I would have ended up scammed if a person didn’t break the rules. Legitimately helpful posts with substantial evidence that bring up the subject of outright plagiarism should not be considered attacks. Rather, they should be taken as legitimate forms of constructive criticism. How is pointing out that someone is copying another isn’t constructive? I’m already aware of the rules, but I disagree with them. Publicly selling assets that aren’t yours is not a private matter and the people that deal with assets that aren’t there own should be held accountable.

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#7

No solution will be “fast enough” because moderation is manual here.

Posts calling others out and detracting from a thread, regardless of its content, is not appropriate to post on public threads. Disputes need to be solved in private. If you are looking to hire, then it falls upon you to determine how you vet people you’re looking to hire. Situations like this are strongly your own weight to bear and no one can be held responsible for you failing to check and verify your sources.

I think using the word “attack” in this scenario is far-fetched. It’s simply not appropriate to post this kind of content on a public thread. Helpful posts are always welcome on Collaboration threads, calling out is not helpful, it’s disrespectful. See the thread I linked; we allow negative criticism so long as it is constructive and of services offered to you. Saying “X stole my work” is not constructive criticism, it is just negative criticism.

Calling out is not constructive because you are not contributing anything to the discussion, you are only ridiculing the OP. That behaviour is not acceptable anywhere on the forums. You don’t fight disrespect with disrespect; you can solve the dispute privately. You can also take your own steps to vet the work of others?

It’s starting to become very blurry as to what you’re trying to get at here since there’s been many points merged around and changed. Your points unclear and disjointed. From what I’ve gotten:

  • Developer Engagement should hold everyone in Collaboration accountable for what they’re doing. This isn’t even a viable solution with the resources currently at hand. What does “holding accountable” even look like in this case?
  • Reviews should be allowed to be posted on people’s portfolios even if they’re negative. We already allow this? Just be constructive, not ridiculing. Putting down other users is not okay and do remember that we have a lot of young users here.
  • You disagree with the rules, but haven’t given clear feedback as to how we can improve on the rules and where they are falling off; one or the other is missing.

I hope I don’t come off as rude when I say this, but this thread’s playing out like a bait and switch.

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#8

Let me rephrase that.
It is less likely I would have gotten scammed if people were free to post evidence regarding a user’s stolen assets. Even though I may have gotten scammed whether a user posted a comment or not, the fact remains that because someone “called out” a scammer, I was prevented from losing my, and my partner’s, money. My solution, is to allow people to claim ownership of their own work if people attempt to distribute or resell it without their permission.

Saying “This person stole my work, here is proof” is not disrespectful or ridicule. It is a statement of a fact, albeit an uncomfortable one. Just as saying “This user provided unsatisfactory service” would be counted as negative, but constructive criticism. If a user is allowed to point out unsatisfactory service, and to potentially warn others of bad service, than they should also be allowed to point out that a user is entirely incapable of providing service at all because they plagiarized someone else’s work.

I acknowledge that it is impossible to hold everybody accountable, anywhere. But we can make it easier by allowing others to post evidence in their reviews, whether to prove they received bad service, or that they stole an asset.

Nobody, can enforce deals that I choose to make and the responsibility falls on the buyer. But we are doing nobody favours if we are silencing the people warning others of scams more quickly than we remove the scammers themselves.

The TLDR: Allow others to post proof in a matter-of-fact manner regarding stolen assets on portfolios to prevent people from becoming scammed because it’s nearly impossible to entirely remove a scammer’s post before it’s too late. Posting proof regarding stolen assets should be considered negative and constructive criticism, because unlike with unsatisfactory service, it is a fact, not opinion based.

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#9

Yea… that works perfectly every single time I do that. Most recently, I DMed someone who posed as a Dutch translator while using my entire portfolio 1:1 (didn’t remove anything expect for changing Polish to Dutch) and I had my message flagged and removed with no action taken on their portfolio. They ended up remaking the entire thing.

Proof:

image
image828×1792 193 KB

Edit:
We can’t dispute it any way that doesn’t involve moving out of the platform because we get flagged either way.

Someone posed as a German translator for Saber Simulator and since I am apart of the team who did their translations, I confronted them about it on the DevForum. Their entire post was removed and I was warned by a moderator for “starting arguments”. I was able to dispute the situation freely on Discord
when they told me that they were lying after pressing them for long enough two days with evidence.

If we were to be able to post valid evidence against someone who’s a scammer, it would’ve saved a lot of people both money and time.

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#10

I have experienced something similar, which outlines an on-going problem within the Dev forum community.

A user posted a portfolio where they copied from another user. I noticed that their work seemed similar, and provided the “original” example for comparison. I pretty much stated “this might be a mistake, but did you get your inspiration from X’s work?”

My post was removed, but the OP’s remained even though I flagged it for review and the evidence of that person copying was outlined in my comment. From my experiences, his community enables people to profit off of work that is not their own.

Privately confronting the person that almost scammed me, or the person I just mentioned above would do nothing. They would be unlikely to remove their posts since they can still reap profits.

I acknowledge that buyers are held accountable for the actions they choose to take. But I’m also supporting that plagiarizers should be held accountable by the buyers, because roblox is unable to efficiently remove their posts themselves.

This forum is supposed to have a strong, business atmosphere since people make livings off of the work they advertise. There is nothing unprofessional about posting evidence that someone is plagiarizing as long as we’re polite about it and present such fact as fact only, no emotion laden topics. In fact, this is the only free lancing community I know of that considers such posts disrespectful. I understand that roblox still wants to keep this place relatively child-friendly and non-toxic, but they also need to take into account that real life money is being constantly distributed and that removing such posts hurts only hurts our community as a whole.

It is the attitude, and the practices, that we need to change.

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#11

Fully agree with all the posts above, it’s hard to come up with a solution, ESPECIALLY right now, which is resolving the issue “privately”, that have a 99% chance of being useless.

Let’s go straight to the point, if they steals contents to begin with, do you really think they’re willing to talk ? well, yes, to take you down, that is.

I also had a case with this user, possessing proofs of cartoonifying (vector converted) existing assets, said that it wasn’t intended (despite his disclaimer was :
Note: Everything apart from the font was made by me)

Worst scenario in those cases is that, despite the time invested to dig out originals, could have potentially be reduced to ashes, as they also easily get backups from their friends, claiming they’ve seen him work live, fast & reliable developer (well, yes, you’d be fast at stealin’ am i right gamers), so i also had to work my way out for assistance too.

Only thing i can suggest if you’re unsure if user legitimate, is to ask for the user to record either fully, or a part on how he did the work you ordered, most PC should handle a recorder and Roblox Studio.

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#12

I will find that enormously helpful when hiring people in the future.

If they were actually making their own assets, they probably wouldn’t object to me watching their progress for a few moments.

Thanks!

#13

Roblox staff never involve themselves with developer disputes because it’s a slippery slope. Collaboration category on this forum is always going to be a “best effort” kind of deal, Roblox is not going to be able to go in and vet offers or comments. If a user committed plagiarism then you should flag the post with a link to the original content so forum staff can boot the user off the forum – that’s an objective thing moderators can check for, compared to the subjective comments related to scamming/etc (no way to verify this if it happened on third party media).

Use category at your own risk and don’t pay upfront if you know you cannot trust the person yet.

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#14

I fully support what Jupiterc is saying and understand what he’s going through, this is the probably the 2nd time he’s been lied to on the DevForum this year.

Like a month ago, he was previously tricked into making art for a user who didnt bother paying him…which is the same situation i went through before, now something like this happens.

I’m not sure if it’s related or not, but 2 days before this thread was created…i noticed that he shut down his portfolio permanently.

If it’s because of how busy his life is now, that’s fine. But if it’s because he just cant trust people on the DevForum as much as he used to…that isnt right.

I myself nearly gave up working on my GFX commissions before i even began because of how i was scammed on my first job…it’s a very hard thing to walk away from.

I’ve only been a DevForum member since November or December…and i’ve already seen nearly 10 developers get scammed now, it isnt right for nothing to happen.

I’m happy they moderate fake portfolios but it’s just not enough nowadays.

I’m sorry but that’s just ridiculous…if a single OP tricks over a dozen new developers on the DevForum into working for free and plans to trick many more…Nobody can do anything?

Look, I get why staff avoid developer disputes, but this is just mind-blowingly sad…

People take advantage over developers with no experience and it happens too often, there should be a system in the report feature where DevForum members can report someone for scamming, submit evidence and then have a mod oversee everything.

The mod will have access to every message the scammer in question submitted or replied to also, if there’s enough evidence and the scammer is found arguing or taunting a developer in messages then a punishment should happen.

I don’t want this forum going down the drain in a few years, it’s painfully obvious that this problem grows more by the year.

I just hope they’ll come up with something…

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#15

Yes you can. Use the flag option? That’s been my point from the beginning.

Dealing with these kinds of things is difficult especially on a forum which is now scaling very largely so it’s first and foremost up to you to take up caution while using the Collaboration category, not someone else’s. An unrelated party needs not hold anyone accountable for an interaction between two parties looking to strike a development deal.

What’s been quoted is not ridiculous. Detracting from an OP or being disrespectful is not appropriate forum behaviour on any category, including Collaboration. Flag a post if you believe it is inappropriate and forum staff will investigate; don’t fight disrespect with disrespect.

I realise what I specifically commented may have not been the best articulated or information-rich so if you want a more clearer and to-the-point version of what I intended to say, see buildthomas’ response.

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#16

As I reiterated throughout my messages that flagging does little, and not quickly enough. (Not roblox’s fault, since they can only do so much so quickly. But nevertheless, it’s inefficient.) If we cannot depend on a moderation system to take down scam posts, we have to depend on us. The buyers.

Roblox cannot, and probably should not, interfere in developer disputes. But we should be allowed to post hard evidence of someone scamming or providing unsatisfying service if we need to protect ourselves. As long as evidence is provided as fact, not emotion and insults, it should not be considered disrespectful but rather an honest review. Just like anything else. I can provide examples where such behaviour is tolerated, even completely necessary, on other free lancing platforms. (DM me.)

That is the entire point of my post.

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#17

Refer to the bottom part of this:

So it would help to clarify (as in edit) across all your posts, as well as the OP, what exactly it is that you’re actually trying to say. The point has changed majorly throughout the thread and now it is settled on “posting comments about stolen proprietary assets should not be considered inappropriate to post”.

So make that clear!

It still doesn’t remain clear and I have three different ideas as to what you want specifically, each without their ends tied except for one in that you seek leniency in Collaboration responses.

This is in address to stating what the point.of your thread is, because there are several individual points to be picked out of this.

The initial point, Roblox holding scammers accountable, is not possible. Roblox does not involve themselves in developer disputes. This has trained into a new point but is not clear without reading responses. It really isn’t the point but rather a new or secondary one.

Flagging may, in your opinion, do very little, but you should still be flagging bad posts anyhow. Even if hypothetically we grant you the leniency of being able to post on portfolios asking others not to sell your assets, you STILL need to flag so moderators are aware of these incidents. They can then investigate and revoke the poster’s membership and remove the portfolio this way, if it’s found that the seller is plagiarising.

Once again I need to reiterate, since it’s been continually missed, that we allow posts on having received unsatisfactory service as long as its constructive which means providing feedback on how the service could’ve been better. That isn’t disallowed and you would know by reading what I’ve gone through. What isn’t permitted right now is your first complaint about being able to post about someone scamming and the evidence to go with it. There’s a reason for that.

Collaboration is still very much laissez-faire. In the past we didn’t have much expectations other than that both parties involved in a deal are weighting their own contribution to the table and Roblox stays out of developer disputes; that is always the case. It has however gotten to a point where needing to implement these rules became necessary because of how much Collaboration posts got derailed on trying to delegitimatise OPs. We have had cases where pointing out plagiarism was bare of opinion, absolutely, but the number didn’t overshadow the number of inappropriate cases. It’s more trouble than it’s worth. Allowing this means more moderation intervention and scalability where we don’t have the sufficient resources to distribute towards.

Community policing still needs to be kept in check which is where moderation comes in for. It is not possible to ensure every review is simply objective. There’s the option of flagging but that too can cause its own respective issues (which we actively work to resolve), e.g. malicious flagging or not knowing the standards as to when flagging would be appropriate. Riddle me how many people know the Collaboration response guidelines exist, let alone how many read it.

In the end it doesn’t matter what happens. You still need to flag. I’m not saying don’t fight for a change in the rules if you think it would be beneficial and resolve an ongoing issue, but I am saying you need to use the flag option. It highlights issues in our community so they can be addressed at all. Simply posting about plagiarism is not enough and only goes as far as community policing without actually tackling the root issue.

And again, if you’re looking for a more condensed version of what I am trying to say minus some, look at buildthomas’ post. You seem to have agreed with that, no?

#18

I have made myself very clear across my messages. I do not think you have read them carefully. I will outline this below.

By holding scammers “accountable” I mean that roblox should not “support” scammers by removing posts that “call them out” for plagarism, WHILE leaving the scammer’s post up. UNLESS they can find a way to efficiently remove such posts themselves, which would be nearly impossible.

I have stated repeatedly that I do not expect, or even desire, roblox to interfere with developer disputes. I do not expect reimbursement for poor judgement decisions of anybody. HOWEVER I do expect, that roblox should, like many other sites where people advertise their work, recognize that plagiarism is a public matter and should be counted as a contribution to the community and the OP’s post.

“Calling out” people for stolen assets, is just as relevant, and constructive, as saying that they should offer better service. Telling people that they should make their own assets, is on par with telling them they should make better assets.

No where, and this outlines where you did not read my messages, did I say, or hint, that we should not flag. In fact, I stated several instances where I flagged posts, but roblox, since they are only human, were ineffective. And as such, we need to depend on the entire community instead of just a handful of people.

The point of allowing comments on portfolios is to offer reviews and vouches for a creator’s work, which we depend on for legitimacy. However, buyers cannot depend on reviews if the negative ones are removed. Since I have stated instances of where roblox was too slow, or didn’t take action at all on plagiarizers, we are left with the choice of relying on reviews to determine someone’s legitimacy. But I repeat, such reviews are useless if only the glowing ones are allowed to remain.

I have to point out, that I completely, and whole-heartedly agree with your messages. I know where you are coming from. It would be taxing for moderators to determine which posts were responsible and mature and picking out the ones that were just a bit too off. But, if roblox can take the time to remove most “call out” posts, they at least have the time to allow some of them to remain.

Based on my, and my friend’s, past experiences, allowing people to point out plagiarism in a concise and mature manner outweigh the negatives. We have to choose the lesser of two evils.

None of them are ideal, but I believe that allowing such posts to remain is the best option we have. It won’t stop scams from happening, and roblox can’t, and will never be expected to, invest in the resources to involve themselves into disputes that we can settle ourselves. We need to depend on ourselves, and part of that is by knowing the full story of someone’s history.

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#19

I think at this point we have to agree to disagree. I understand your point, and as I stated above I completely agree with what you’re trying to get at.

I believe that we’re better off doing one thing based on my unique experience, while you firmly believe we’re better off doing the opposite. None of us are completely right, since both of our solutions has issues.

I will leave it at that.

#20

This post helps clear things up. I have a better grasp at where you’re coming from and what specific concepts are being discussed here, so cheers and I do apologise if part of this discussion dropped off at some point if indeed it was me not reading properly. I did the best I could to interpret everything you’ve posted so far but apparently not well enough.

That’ll be all from me then.

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