In response to the 'oof' sound discussion

@xLinkTijgerYT
Both of these are easy to dismiss due to how copyright works. This isn’t how copyright really works in the US (where Roblox is based). If you want to protect your copyrighted material you must register it. (See reply below. Thanks @sncplay42 for correcting me!) Tommy produced the audio for Shiny Entertainment, therefore Shiny Entertainment may have licensed this audio out as copyright free audio. The contract, as I have previously said, does not change anything. If anything it shows that Shiny Entertainment has breached the contract. This does not state that Tommy owns the copyright nor does it state that Roblox is in the wrong.

That video has gotten a lot of information incorrect from what I can tell and it’s basing it’s info off of implausible rumors. It’s somewhat biased with its wording and it seems to be based on a lot of rumors. That doesn’t hold up very well in my opinion.

Additionally, I mostly agree with both sides here. Tommy isn’t really in the wrong for being upset nor has Roblox done anything unlawful.

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Sort of yes, and sort of no. The third party (Shiny Entertainment) appears to be almost entirely if not fully responsible as Roblox had no way of verifying that the sound was uncopyrighted. It’s simply impossible to say Roblox has broken copyright laws and to be fair, nobody intends to break copyright laws when they start a game. I don’t see Tommy winning a court battle because there’s just not enough evidence to say Roblox knew they were using a copyrighted sound.

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By doing that, Roblox would be essentially confirming Tommy’s accusations. I’m also pretty sure Tommy was asking for a pretty large amount of money, definitely more money than a half second sound is worth.

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Now everything is pointing towards being in Roblox’s favor rather than Tommy’s. I now completely understand why Roblox decided not to buy the sound or the copyright to it.
Is it now confirmed that the sound is not copyrighted, or how it was licensed to the CD or something? How do we know that Roblox is most likely in the clear?

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As far as I’m aware, we don’t currently have solid proof that the sound has been registered with the copyright office; the evidence that Tommy gave is controversial due to some suspicious spelling errors and formatting inconsistencies. We also don’t know for sure about whether the sound was licensed out to any CD, though there is speculation that the sound may be on this CD produced by Tommy himself with tens of thousands of sound effects on it.

We don’t at this stage; we don’t have the crucial details, and I don’t suspect we will have them until either the community finds them or Roblox takes Tommy to court. It’s really a question of whether you trust Roblox is being honest.

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to be honest i dont care about anything else, i just want the oof sound, and thats all

the new oof sounds don’t really sound that great right now and roblox would kinda loose something iconic ; a piece of history that hasn’t changed for years

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I honestly wanted Roblox to be in the right here, but the more and more I look into it and the more research I do, the stranger it seems. It’s starting to feel like a situation where neither party is in the right and both made major mistakes.

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Wow roblox, I am impressed. After 5 years of hate, good stuff, you have finally talked. Maybe next time make roblox all UGC, maybe UGC will make new logo or new name? :thinking:

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I was actually confused about this drama happening… Thanks for clearing this up. :+1:

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Hold on, if this is the case, one of the original sounds that remains (bass.wav) mentions a copyright to A1 Free Sound Effects. They, as far as I know, no longer exist however they sold CDs of various sound effects for commercial use. They started selling and making these sounds in 1998, before Messiah was released.

Their website is available on some sort of alternative hosting service but you can still view pretty much (if not) the entire website on the Wayback Machine. Make of this what you will, feel free to dig around the website and make sure to move around on the timeline. The link I provided is a saved snapshot from September 2002. Prepare yourself for glorious old web design.

Note that I’m going off of the assumption that Roblox is, in fact, stating facts and that they got all of their original sound files from said CD-ROM.

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Can people stop saying this already? It’s been refuted multiple times in this thread: 1 2

It’s only necessary to register before bringing a lawsuit.

That doesn’t leave Roblox completely off the hook. If Tommy can demonstrate that he holds copyright on the work then:

  • Roblox would still need to produce evidence that they had a good faith belief they had a valid license from the seller of this CD to avoid being liable for damages.
  • And they would still need to discontinue use of the sound once it becomes apparent that their license is invalid (or negotiate a new one with Tommy).
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Tommy’s tweet says “We also filed last year for Registration in case of a lawsuit.” i.e. I think that picture is supposed to be of his filing to the USCO, not any response from them. Then there’s no reason it should look like a USCO letter, and it’s entirely possible that Tommy, or Tommy’s lawyer, or Tommy’s lawyer’s clerk etc. misspelled “correspondence”.

“Shiny Entertainment, Inc” is what every other source seems to call it. Seems more likely to me it’s been misspelled on that one document to me.

The bit at the top looks like a header added by a fax machine to me (hence “PHONE NO.”). That date would be the date this copy was printed/sent, then, not the documents’s date.

Also the document describes it self as an addendum, i.e. not the original contract. “THIS ADDENDUM NUMBER TWO TO THE…CONTRACTOR AGREEMENT, dated February 13, 1998” could. mean Feb 13th is the original contract’s date.

(Sorry for continuously editing this post as I notice new things)

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As I said, those are the stuff that make it seem sketchy to me, if he gets it registered, props to him I guess, but the filling of the USCO doesn’t make that much sense, why would his filling include case number and correspondence id number?
About the copyright catalog one, if the Copyright Claimant, Authorship is wrong, doesn’t that make Messiah’s copyright invalid? Which also wouldn’t make sense since the owners of supposedly “Shiny Entertainment” holds the copyright over “Shiney Entertainment” as a corporate name.
The dates, yeah that makes sense I suppose, but still doesn’t make sense that numbers that are supposed to be public are being censored, and if they do not have access to these numbers yet, supposing it’s not the real deal, why would they put that in his filing? Just doesn’t add up.

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Response to removed text

And I’m saying that he might not be intending to claim it’s a USCO document. It’s a bit unclear what exactly he’s purporting it to be.

If this isn’t the initial letter in the exchange - there could be some back and forth - then it’s so the USCO would know what case the letter is for.

Are you saying Shiny’s copyright on Messiah as a whole would be invalidated by Tommy’s claim on the sound effect? I don’t think that’s how it works. There’s such a thing as derivative works, which have protection under law like original works (and thus could be registered).

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Glad to see a response to this. Can’t wait to see Tommy in the community.

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I am on the side of ROBLOX…

OOF is an iconic sound that has been around for years. It is not the base of Roblox but the subject of memes and just a memory that many of us have. What Tommy is doing is disgusting - threatening to sue a corporation that fosters creativity for children, unless they PAY for a 1-second sound that did not take a LONG LONG time to create. This isn’t an example of abuse of corporate power… it’s called being realistic.

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Are we forgetting that these memes and memories, which are an icon of Roblox, have likely helped them positively? The law is the law, regardless.

It doesn’t matter about people’s emotions, or how short the sound is. What matters to the law is that Roblox has been using his sound, aware he owns it. (Hence, technically having a copyright)

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As stated in a lot of replies above, this seems to be getting out of hand (information seems to not quite line up). At this point I’m starting to believe that something is going on behind the scenes and I’m not sure what my opinion is anymore. I think I’ll let this play out before I decide anything new.

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IMO, I think Tommy is kind of in the wrong for making this whole situation public and adding more flame to the fire. I feel this situation should have been kept private. But then again, he has presented proof on his twitter that he owns the copyright to this sound?

I don’t know man, not the best with copyright. :man_shrugging:

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Just adding to the information here as well as discussing some examples of some neat photo forensics tricks I’ve picked up (for people who want to verify some of these documents), the date in the top right is aligned rather well. (This isn’t really suspicious on its own or anything to me since the dates are so close together, unless its covering something but I kind of doubt that). These dates are 4 days apart so it’s likely this is just due to repeated transferring of the image through different fax machines.

Notice the slant of all text on the page vs the perfectly aligned text in the top right.

image

Additionally, through artifacting we can sort of date how relatively old the text is by looking at the build up of artifacting (be mindful of ink since this will cause this artifacting meaning it will “spread” through multiple faxes). We can assume the top right portion was faxed very few times however most of the text was faxed frequently. We can also assume this document was faxed several times due to the amount of artifacting around the black header bar.

We can tell for almost 100% certainty the text I was talking about has been faxed due to the artifacting present directly around the text.

The blacked out phone number text is additionally most likely present. We can see some artifacting in certain locations which would suggest a character being there. This tells us the black phone number overlay was added in post (with the red line)

Finally, we can tell this image is most likely unedited (excluding the red marking). All text has artifacting around it and the full image (excluding the red marking) appears to contain only black and white pixels (meaning no text is directly added on top).

In conclusion, this contract appears genuine imo. That or Tommy sent this thing through the fax machine in just the right ways to create this artifacting which I kinda doubt tbh.

P.S. if you’re wondering how I did this, I used paint.net and the Alpha Mask Plugin from boltbait’s pack. I selected all white pixels and all black pixels with the magic wand tool (in this case it made sense to set sensitivity to 0%). I then moved these to their own layers. Next I took the remaining “aliased” pixels, moved them to a new layer, and used the alpha mask plugin to apply transparency.

Here’s my pdn file of what this produced: Contract.pdn (2.0 MB)

As for the copyright office image, this is definitely a digital screenshot taken from (most likely) Windows. We can tell due to the subpixel rendering around the text (this produces weird looking colors. Essentially subpixel rendering treats the red, green, and blue components of each pixel as its own pixel allowing for more accurate text and the colors produced appear to be produced by Windows’ cleartype software, however, this could still be another OS, just probably Windows).

The image appears to be produced in possibly Microsoft word due to the box to the left of the “Declaration of Tommy Tallarico” text appearing similar to word’s rendering of boxes (this is DEFINITELY too abstract to say with any confidence, just my guess). This is most definitely NOT a real document.

Based on the text leaking from under the red coverup there are NOT numbers underneath, in fact it appears that these are just underscores. We can see 1px tall lines spanning 32px in width. The font appears to be rendered in the same dimensions (For example, measure the width of the capital Ts in the image ignoring subpixel rendering. They span EXACTLY 32px in width)

image
image

Additionally, in the below image, there is absolutely no plain text character which would follow this shape excluding underscores. I originally thought maybe this was a two, however the two would curve much sooner.

In conclusion, this document is most definitely fake imo and it does it follow the quality or format a government document would.

Diagram/map showcasing what I have pointed out:

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