That last issue is easily solved by defining the permadeath feature at the beginning of the game, be it in a tutorial or in an intro.
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Not necessarily; parents likely won’t be around to know that so the kid could lie and depending on the parent set the parent on a one man crusade against you.
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That doesn’t really matter to me though. I am well prepared to handle situations that arise out of the nature of the game. I am concerned with whether or not the mechanic is worth the pursuit as it relates to the game, not regarding pointless outrages outside of it.
Please remain on-topic.
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If you implement this I would keep an external log of character RIPs just in case. And I was on topic, just mentioning a concern i saw with permadeath mechanics
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The only reason I would ever have to keep a log of characters would be for monetary concerns should bought items not be permanent or if a previous character needs to be used in the future (i.e. aesthetics, references, penalisations, unique features, so on). Otherwise, this sounds fairly pointless.
I will consider a log for necessity purposes though, otherwise this sounds like an investment in wasting time.
Logs would also be useful in other cases. You’d know if your kill tracker was messed up, could potentially restore characters that died to a bug or exploit, and so on. The benefits far outweigh the effort, considering all the log would have to be at a bare minimum would be a dump of some character data (maybe all of it?) and the kill data. Also, if all of the sudden you’re getting five times the number of kills a day, and your game hasn’t exploded, it’s a telltale sign of issues even if players can’t/won’t/don’t tell you.
Logs like that are generally just a great idea if you can store them. Doubly so in the case of permadeath games; cuz players dying to bugs really turns them away.
I already have enough of a backup plan to prevent those instances - exploits are a legitimate concern however, only if there is PVP interaction or some way that players can influence the survivability or health of others. In this case, there is nothing beneficial for either party. I don’t find logs to be beneficial.
If you’d like to further discuss this, feel free to message me. I’d like to focus in on permadeath as a game mechanic though, not zoom in on submechanics that stem from it. It’s a fair discussion but I feel it’d be better to bring it in a different environment.
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Probable, yes.
I’d say permadeath has a few things that should be avoided:
Random oneshots
Lethal bugs
Lack of communication on death (players should know what happened)
Massive losses. (If someone gets to high level and dies, there should be a benefit of some form, or returning to that point should be quick. Otherwise, people may leave when they die.)
Lack of tells. If something IS gonna oneshot you, or put a massive dent in your character, it should be obvious where it’s coming from and when.
After death mechanics. Enemies should not be able to post mortem kill you. Another major gripe I have with PoE.
But generally, if the game would be more intense with a “you only live once” attitude and not paranoia inducing (again, oneshots; players shouldn’t be encouraged to grind all the challenge away just because your idea of challenge is a massive oneshot attack with a hard to avoid tell)
Some games don’t benefit from permadeath. Sandbox games, particularly ones with environmental damage and no challenge once you master actually avoiding said environmental damage (Minecraft comes to mind) don’t benefit at all. PvP games don’t benefit either. In general, permadeath only really belongs in certain story games, games with fast progression, and the like (such as FTL and some RPGs, especcially ones that don’t have bossfights designed to powder you into dust) You could pull off permadeath in other games, but it’d be hard.
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First off, you should take your target audience into consideration, due to the fact that a system like this would really only be appealing to mature, experienced players. Also, you should definitely have a “free-for-all” game mode that users can go on when they die. Think of it like a practice mode with certain objectives.
Also, make sure that you award players for certain milestones, or you’ll have people that’ll stop playing your game after making great progression, followed by a crushing defeat with no reward. That would be a situation which would deter players from your game.
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I know I’ve beaten the Path of Exile horse half to death but this is one thing they do well; they have Hardcore and Standard modes and leagues. When you die in hardcore, you are moved to standard. You can keep playing, but you’re not in HC anymore.
I decided to do some long-term research on this post. I’ve been playing a popular permadeath game recently. So, after this month of research, here is what I, your average high schooler, concluded:
Permadeath is a great mechanic. It adds a sense of urgency to the game and gets your players involved; Your players can’t just AFK as they’ll never know when someone will come up and kill them. It is super immersive.
Also, this mechanic is super fun with friends. This is a mechanic that makes teamwork shine. You don’t want to die, and don’t want your friends to die, so you formulate plans for combat. It is super interactive. With this, communities are born where they all play with each other and help one another out. This is probably the best part of the permadeath mechanic: The teamwork.
But there are negatives. First off, there will always be those who are not good at the game. They will most likely storm communities with rage. This in inevitable as this mechanic isn’t for everyone. Nothing hurts more than losing 16 hours of progress in 30 seconds of combat (I speak from experience). But this shouldn’t turn you away from permadeath; just like any other mechanic, it has its cons as well.
But there is one big problem with permadeath that will make or break your game: Balancing. If there is a player who owns a severely unbalanced class goes on a killing spree, it is likely that people will riot. Imagine playing for 7 hours only to be killed by someone spamming an unbalanced item from a mile away (again, from experience). This is where the true rioting and salt comes from. If you have permadeath in your game, you must spend a lot of your time, not only making things, but on making sure it is balanced. Every single update has to be balance checked, or there will be big consequences.
That seems hard enough, but it is manageable. The game I played does an excellent job of it although there are a few outliers. But I lied saying that balancing is the sole thing that would make or break your game. There is one last thing that will completely kill your game if you don’t manage them: Exploiters. The game I played managed this problem by being paid access and having an excellent exploit detection system. In your game, if you don’t have a good system for detecting exploiters, you’re toast. Exploiters are already bad enough in games like Jailbreak; but at least the worst they can do is get you killed in that game. In a permadeath game, they can erase hours of work in a few seconds. Exploiters are the bane of permadeath games; nothing makes the community more mad than them. They are unbalanced, unfair, and, to them, easily preventable; they just think you’re lazy when you don’t ban them because they don’t realize how difficult it is to make a good anti-exploit system. You must spend a lot of time and money by testing your system. And more than that, you must keep it up to date: New exploits are being released daily.
TL;DR: Permadeath is super fun, especially with friends. But if you decide to implement it in your game, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time balancing everything. Sustaining a community built on a permadeath game is hard. But the payoffs will be immense: Immersing your players in the experience, getting players addicted, and giving players a fun time with friends.
Oh, and you better have a good exploit detection system. If you don’t, your community will get Thanos snapped.
These are just a few of the basic things. There are other challenges too like glitches and false deaths/bans which, in turn, bring their own trouble (moderation). If you want me to make another post diving into these problems, just let me know.
But permadeath can be implemented favourably. I know that you can do it, and I wish you the best on your project.
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A late thank you for all the responses, everyone! Really appreciative that this has been a productive discussion thread about an interesting design choice.
I am still processing all the responses as far as my own project goes, though the information is also helpful for any other projects as well and can carry over elsewhere.
As this is a discussion and information thread both for myself and potentially others, I’d just like to say now that I won’t be marking a solution. This is still an open topic.
Cheers. 
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Could you expand a little more on your thoughts so I understand your perspective on the matter? Remember that this a discussion so the better and more detailed the input, the more valuable it provides to discussion and insight towards the mechanic.
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What makes the permadeath mechanic interesting to you as a player?
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What do you believe younger players will feel when faced with this mechanic?
- How should I approach such issues so that, if I choose to adopt the mechanic, it can work well for audiences of all ages? Should I work for all ages or just focus on my target market?
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What factors into frustration with the use of the mechanic?
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Is it worth addressing these frustrations? How will I, or the game, be affected by addressing or failing to address these frustrations?
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What are some ways these frustrations can be alleviated and/or removed from the equation, if I should address them?
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Should said frustrations count as a fundamental part of the game’s core elements, adopting a “get good or get lost” mentality?
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Have you played any games with permadeath? What were some of the highlights about their implementation of the mechanic that you found interesting?
I would be delighted if you could provide an expansive response that covers as much of these questions as you can: even moreso if all points could be addressed.
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I wouldn’t say force it on the player because of Roblox’s younger audience, and perma death is more of a mature audience approach
Maybe take a note from what Minecraft does which makes the perma death mechanic optional through Hardcore mode
While there isn’t much of a reward (maybe besides bragging rights and the feeling of glory) in Hardcore mode, why not make it a higher risk, higher reward thing
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A hardcore mode switch would definitely be something worth considering, depending on the game’s style. In addition to Minecraft, there’s also Dungeon Quest which allows enabling of hardcore mode for that specific party. The rewards are doubled at the cost of only having one life which is a form of permadeath.
Depending on the style of game I’d like to go with though, a hardcore mode switch probably wouldn’t be possible or would end up too complicated to support. For the game that this thread was originally intended for, its mechanics would make switching in and out of hardcore very difficult to support.
In terms of market, using my aforementioned original concept from before, it’d probably be safe to say that my aim is to target more mature audiences or ones that would be able to bear such a mechanic. Player count, money and all that doesn’t mean too much to me: I’d care about releasing a game that a certain audience, myself included, could enjoy. Just wanted to throw that out there.
Thank you for the input though, I’ll keep it in mind for more arcade-like games.
My opinion is that perma-death is a feature that should only be used in certain conditions. I would personally enjoy playing a game with that feature, it creates a unique experience that makes you truly focus on the game knowing that the stakes are higher. However, for it to really work, I feel that the reward must also be greater. If you can survive to level 100, for example, give a better reward than another game if you reach level 100 but die 1000 times as well. As for attracting an audience, I do not believe that most of ROBLOX would take to it as I would. Great question, and good luck with your project!
Could you explain what you mean by said certain conditions? What conditions do you feel need to be met in order for permadeath to be a workable mechanic in the game? I’ll need details to be able to understand your perspective and views better.
What do you refer to when you say reward? Reward for what? Why would a reward be a deteriminant factor of whether permadeath would have success or failure, noting your use of the phrase “for it to really work”? I feel that you may be branching a bit off into something unrelated.
As for attracting an audience, what do you feel is the general distance between how you view permadeath and what you think others may? What do these respective views contribute towards in regards to building or maintaining an audience?
Permadeath mechanics aren’t meant to make the game easier each time you die: it is a penalisation of your death that sets your progress back. The difficulty doesn’t change, it remains static throughout the playthrough. You may, however, experience more difficulty depending on the type of applied penalisation for a death.
What entertainment factor do you believe players will get out of a game with a permadeath factor?
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This response doesn’t really contribute anything. No one would raise health to an absurd amount just because of the presence of permadeath, as it would harm the gameplay loop very strongly.
I would be more appreciative if your response discussed the actual mechanic and why you believe that it would be worth the pursuit. I am looking for substantial information in responses, not short-answers. This isn’t an appraisal thread or a chat thread; be prepared to write lengthy responses.
I’m going to be moving this thread to the Discussion category. If you wish for more information as to why I chose to do so, please read the “Old PSA” tab below this message. I apologise in advance if you are no longer able to add responses to the thread for myself or others.
Given that this is in the Discussion category, post approval will be required to add replies to this thread rather than it being free to reply to. I’m hoping that in requiring post approval to reply here, good discussion will continue to be generated like the initial 40- or 50-some posts.
I find that this is a very valuable and informative thread on a unique and interesting topic, so I wish to keep it that way rather than it being a quick drop-off for short undescriptive responses.
Thanks for understanding!
Old PSA
I’m just going to stick a little PSA here for future replies, now that this topic is starting to rise and attract more responses again. Please read this before replying.
I intended for this thread to be a discussion about permadeath mechanics. While this was successful for the duration for it’s initial appearance, the thread has been revived and I’m starting to see some low quality responses, from short responses to lack of explanation of details and not keeping up with initiated discussion.
If you have the intention to add a reply to this thread, please be prepared to supply an expansive reply. This is a place to gain valuable feedback or information about the subject for me and anyone else interested in this topic, not to receive appraisals. If you are unwilling to provide details in your response, please do not reply to the thread at all. I am not looking for short-answer responses. Add a heart to posts that best speak your mind if you don’t have anything substantial to add to discussion.
I do not want to move this to the Discussion category to prevent responses and furthermore require post approval in order to add replies, but it’s a necessary step I will take if the thread continues to generate noise that doesn’t contribute to the topic significantly, on top of flagging posts.
Please explain your thoughts if you intend to reply and help provide information to what can serve as a good repository for personal opinions on the subject and try to make sure there are no unexplained concepts.
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