Is permadeath a mechanic worth pursuing? If so, when is it appropriate?

First off, you should take your target audience into consideration, due to the fact that a system like this would really only be appealing to mature, experienced players. Also, you should definitely have a “free-for-all” game mode that users can go on when they die. Think of it like a practice mode with certain objectives.

Also, make sure that you award players for certain milestones, or you’ll have people that’ll stop playing your game after making great progression, followed by a crushing defeat with no reward. That would be a situation which would deter players from your game.

3 Likes

I know I’ve beaten the Path of Exile horse half to death but this is one thing they do well; they have Hardcore and Standard modes and leagues. When you die in hardcore, you are moved to standard. You can keep playing, but you’re not in HC anymore.

I decided to do some long-term research on this post. I’ve been playing a popular permadeath game recently. So, after this month of research, here is what I, your average high schooler, concluded:


Permadeath is a great mechanic. It adds a sense of urgency to the game and gets your players involved; Your players can’t just AFK as they’ll never know when someone will come up and kill them. It is super immersive.

Also, this mechanic is super fun with friends. This is a mechanic that makes teamwork shine. You don’t want to die, and don’t want your friends to die, so you formulate plans for combat. It is super interactive. With this, communities are born where they all play with each other and help one another out. This is probably the best part of the permadeath mechanic: The teamwork.

But there are negatives. First off, there will always be those who are not good at the game. They will most likely storm communities with rage. This in inevitable as this mechanic isn’t for everyone. Nothing hurts more than losing 16 hours of progress in 30 seconds of combat (I speak from experience). But this shouldn’t turn you away from permadeath; just like any other mechanic, it has its cons as well.

But there is one big problem with permadeath that will make or break your game: Balancing. If there is a player who owns a severely unbalanced class goes on a killing spree, it is likely that people will riot. Imagine playing for 7 hours only to be killed by someone spamming an unbalanced item from a mile away (again, from experience). This is where the true rioting and salt comes from. If you have permadeath in your game, you must spend a lot of your time, not only making things, but on making sure it is balanced. Every single update has to be balance checked, or there will be big consequences.

That seems hard enough, but it is manageable. The game I played does an excellent job of it although there are a few outliers. But I lied saying that balancing is the sole thing that would make or break your game. There is one last thing that will completely kill your game if you don’t manage them: Exploiters. The game I played managed this problem by being paid access and having an excellent exploit detection system. In your game, if you don’t have a good system for detecting exploiters, you’re toast. Exploiters are already bad enough in games like Jailbreak; but at least the worst they can do is get you killed in that game. In a permadeath game, they can erase hours of work in a few seconds. Exploiters are the bane of permadeath games; nothing makes the community more mad than them. They are unbalanced, unfair, and, to them, easily preventable; they just think you’re lazy when you don’t ban them because they don’t realize how difficult it is to make a good anti-exploit system. You must spend a lot of time and money by testing your system. And more than that, you must keep it up to date: New exploits are being released daily.

TL;DR: Permadeath is super fun, especially with friends. But if you decide to implement it in your game, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time balancing everything. Sustaining a community built on a permadeath game is hard. But the payoffs will be immense: Immersing your players in the experience, getting players addicted, and giving players a fun time with friends.
Oh, and you better have a good exploit detection system. If you don’t, your community will get Thanos snapped.


These are just a few of the basic things. There are other challenges too like glitches and false deaths/bans which, in turn, bring their own trouble (moderation). If you want me to make another post diving into these problems, just let me know.

But permadeath can be implemented favourably. I know that you can do it, and I wish you the best on your project.

6 Likes

A late thank you for all the responses, everyone! Really appreciative that this has been a productive discussion thread about an interesting design choice.

I am still processing all the responses as far as my own project goes, though the information is also helpful for any other projects as well and can carry over elsewhere.

As this is a discussion and information thread both for myself and potentially others, I’d just like to say now that I won’t be marking a solution. This is still an open topic.

Cheers. :slightly_smiling_face:

4 Likes

Could you expand a little more on your thoughts so I understand your perspective on the matter? Remember that this a discussion so the better and more detailed the input, the more valuable it provides to discussion and insight towards the mechanic.

  • What makes the permadeath mechanic interesting to you as a player?

  • What do you believe younger players will feel when faced with this mechanic?

    • How should I approach such issues so that, if I choose to adopt the mechanic, it can work well for audiences of all ages? Should I work for all ages or just focus on my target market?
  • What factors into frustration with the use of the mechanic?

    • Is it worth addressing these frustrations? How will I, or the game, be affected by addressing or failing to address these frustrations?

    • What are some ways these frustrations can be alleviated and/or removed from the equation, if I should address them?

    • Should said frustrations count as a fundamental part of the game’s core elements, adopting a “get good or get lost” mentality?

  • Have you played any games with permadeath? What were some of the highlights about their implementation of the mechanic that you found interesting?

I would be delighted if you could provide an expansive response that covers as much of these questions as you can: even moreso if all points could be addressed.

1 Like

I wouldn’t say force it on the player because of Roblox’s younger audience, and perma death is more of a mature audience approach

Maybe take a note from what Minecraft does which makes the perma death mechanic optional through Hardcore mode

While there isn’t much of a reward (maybe besides bragging rights and the feeling of glory) in Hardcore mode, why not make it a higher risk, higher reward thing

1 Like

A hardcore mode switch would definitely be something worth considering, depending on the game’s style. In addition to Minecraft, there’s also Dungeon Quest which allows enabling of hardcore mode for that specific party. The rewards are doubled at the cost of only having one life which is a form of permadeath.

Depending on the style of game I’d like to go with though, a hardcore mode switch probably wouldn’t be possible or would end up too complicated to support. For the game that this thread was originally intended for, its mechanics would make switching in and out of hardcore very difficult to support.

In terms of market, using my aforementioned original concept from before, it’d probably be safe to say that my aim is to target more mature audiences or ones that would be able to bear such a mechanic. Player count, money and all that doesn’t mean too much to me: I’d care about releasing a game that a certain audience, myself included, could enjoy. Just wanted to throw that out there.

Thank you for the input though, I’ll keep it in mind for more arcade-like games.

My opinion is that perma-death is a feature that should only be used in certain conditions. I would personally enjoy playing a game with that feature, it creates a unique experience that makes you truly focus on the game knowing that the stakes are higher. However, for it to really work, I feel that the reward must also be greater. If you can survive to level 100, for example, give a better reward than another game if you reach level 100 but die 1000 times as well. As for attracting an audience, I do not believe that most of ROBLOX would take to it as I would. Great question, and good luck with your project!

Could you explain what you mean by said certain conditions? What conditions do you feel need to be met in order for permadeath to be a workable mechanic in the game? I’ll need details to be able to understand your perspective and views better.

What do you refer to when you say reward? Reward for what? Why would a reward be a deteriminant factor of whether permadeath would have success or failure, noting your use of the phrase “for it to really work”? I feel that you may be branching a bit off into something unrelated.

As for attracting an audience, what do you feel is the general distance between how you view permadeath and what you think others may? What do these respective views contribute towards in regards to building or maintaining an audience?

Permadeath mechanics aren’t meant to make the game easier each time you die: it is a penalisation of your death that sets your progress back. The difficulty doesn’t change, it remains static throughout the playthrough. You may, however, experience more difficulty depending on the type of applied penalisation for a death.

What entertainment factor do you believe players will get out of a game with a permadeath factor?

1 Like

This response doesn’t really contribute anything. No one would raise health to an absurd amount just because of the presence of permadeath, as it would harm the gameplay loop very strongly.

I would be more appreciative if your response discussed the actual mechanic and why you believe that it would be worth the pursuit. I am looking for substantial information in responses, not short-answers. This isn’t an appraisal thread or a chat thread; be prepared to write lengthy responses.

I’m going to be moving this thread to the Discussion category. If you wish for more information as to why I chose to do so, please read the “Old PSA” tab below this message. I apologise in advance if you are no longer able to add responses to the thread for myself or others.

Given that this is in the Discussion category, post approval will be required to add replies to this thread rather than it being free to reply to. I’m hoping that in requiring post approval to reply here, good discussion will continue to be generated like the initial 40- or 50-some posts.

I find that this is a very valuable and informative thread on a unique and interesting topic, so I wish to keep it that way rather than it being a quick drop-off for short undescriptive responses.

Thanks for understanding!

Old PSA

I’m just going to stick a little PSA here for future replies, now that this topic is starting to rise and attract more responses again. Please read this before replying.

I intended for this thread to be a discussion about permadeath mechanics. While this was successful for the duration for it’s initial appearance, the thread has been revived and I’m starting to see some low quality responses, from short responses to lack of explanation of details and not keeping up with initiated discussion.

If you have the intention to add a reply to this thread, please be prepared to supply an expansive reply. This is a place to gain valuable feedback or information about the subject for me and anyone else interested in this topic, not to receive appraisals. If you are unwilling to provide details in your response, please do not reply to the thread at all. I am not looking for short-answer responses. Add a heart to posts that best speak your mind if you don’t have anything substantial to add to discussion.

I do not want to move this to the Discussion category to prevent responses and furthermore require post approval in order to add replies, but it’s a necessary step I will take if the thread continues to generate noise that doesn’t contribute to the topic significantly, on top of flagging posts.

Please explain your thoughts if you intend to reply and help provide information to what can serve as a good repository for personal opinions on the subject and try to make sure there are no unexplained concepts.

1 Like

Maybe I didn’t explain it well enough. If a player has to repeat the start of the game multiple times i feel it would be better to make it slightly easier so that they can still progress, up to the point where they died, then it will return to normal difficulty. On the other hand, you could have a lot of regeneration and a large health pool so that death doesn’t happen very often.

No no, I get what you said, but I want to know how this is of any benefit to a game? Not many game structures are easily able to support difficulty changing natively and in some cases it may ruin the narrative of the game depending on how you’re approaching the theme of your game. Permadeath is primarily made to penalise your deaths and not provide any handicaps at any point.

The same goes with large health pools. Someone suggested this earlier but never explained how this could be a good concept for a game involving permadeath. Taking longer to die removes any actual effectiveness of the mechanic, as does the “high risk high reward” nature of it. Large health pools can be obtained as you progress, sure, but that doesn’t mean a future enemy won’t be capable of dishing out a blow that consumes a large chunk of your health. Starting off with large health pools defeats a lot of the purpose of making survival fun and valuable to maintain; for example, Apocalypse Rising.

Your suggestions seem to harken towards making things easier for the player as an exchange for including permadeath. Could you explain why you think each concept would be worth pursuing in a permadeath environment, acknowledging the drawbacks this kind of thing presents? For an arcade-like game involving permadeath it may be worth looking at but for other types of games they don’t seem like the best to work toward.

Could you expand on your response a little more so I can gain a better perspective of where you’re approaching this topic from? What makes this a unique mechanic to pursue and why specifically for large games or MMORPGs? Why would permadeath not go over well with a game targeted towards any audience? These are crucial details lacking information.

I remember there used to be a 1950s-esque role play game that was all the rave back in 2012-2013 that used a “semi-permadeath” system and I loved it, honestly. They had coded something up where if you died, you were dead until the next real life day, so if you died at say 12:02 am, you had to wait essentially 24 hours, but if you died at 11:58 pm, you only had to wait two minutes.

It made it more risky to be a jerk to the police, because you knew they could gun you down and you’re done for the day. You thought more about whether to steal a cop car (which was the only cars in the game) or to go into areas you weren’t supposed to (mafia related areas).

The only unfortunate thing was that you could die of random physics glitches (ya know, falling through the ground for no reason, getting flung off of nothing, etc)

So while I think a perm-death system can be very intriguing, you need to consider what exactly is it’s purpose to your gameplay, and try to find a happy medium where not just all deaths are something to give perma-death (because some deaths aren’t “normal” deaths.) Also, if you’re in a game that’s using a form of combat, trying to figure out protections against combat logging* is a must.

Once you find a protection against random physics & combat logging, you’re golden.

*Popularized in games like Ultimate Driving, Combat Logging is where you engage in combat, in UD, usually against the police, and then once you realize you’re in an unwinnable position, i.e. you’re low health, outnumbered, etc, you just Alt + F4 to keep yourself out of jail.
2 Likes

Oh yeah, glitches and logging are definitely a considerable point to factor in when working with permadeath. The game I was originally working with which made this thread appear was a PvP game so this would’ve weighed in heavily, but now it’s been relegated to just a general question.

I’ve never heard of that 1950s-esque role play game, but it seems like I have a bit of digging to do. That’s a concept that’s caught my attention… having to wait until the next day (not 24h) before you can play again after death. Thanks for the mention. :slightly_smiling_face:

1 Like

I have no idea the name of the game anymore unfortunately. I tried to do some digging to find it, but never managed to. And admittedly, that was always what was said (that you had to wait until midnight.) But in honesty, I think the game just banned you from that server but there was always only one server playing, and over night the server would die cuz everyone would get off. So, grain of salt on that there system being a real deal thing.

But either way, it made things very interesting. I wish when I was 14-15 yrs old I had the foresight to mark down some of the games that made my early time on Roblox really fun to see if they still exist to this day. :sweat_smile:

1 Like

Permadeath mechanics have definitely been used on Roblox before and many of those examples were popular survival games. Apocalypse Rising, Unturned, Booga Booga, etc. The most important part is to keep the players from feeling like giving up by making it fairly easy to get to a decent progress.

Doesn’t that heavily depend on the type of game you are trying to approach though? I don’t find that making decent progress easy to obtain works for every type of game involving permadeath - especially not the original RPG concept I was working with, nor a Soulsborne-esque concept.

In my perspective, a game involving permadeath should not be representative of or scale how quickly you can progress, but rather how harshly you can be penalised for failure. In a game with no difficulty setting, difficulty becomes a subjective concept. Therefore, with a regular form of progression according to the needs of my game (concepts, lore, length, so on), making things easier to get through may not be the most rewarding or fun to get through. For those who give up, they aren’t ready for the challenge.

2 Likes