Slight rant — The problem with the Roblox devforum in 1 picture

Hey everyone,

We just wanted to assert that we’re actively listening to your feedback and interested in improving the forum as a result of it.

Going forward, we’re going to set up some focus groups to meet with some of you to get a better understanding of some of the points you’re raising.

It’s really great to receive such passionate feedback about the forum. There’s a lot of potential to improve based on your feedback, and it’s incredibly well-timed too: our Q4 goal with the Community Sages is to improve the experience of using the forum for power users and those who want to have in-depth development discussions.

Your feedback honestly could not have come at a better time.

Thanks,
coefficients & Nightgaladeld

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Virtually anyone can join and post in the dev forum. I appreciate that you do not lay the blame on new members, but this unrestricted access is definitely harmful to the dev forums.

I’ve been reading dev forum posts for awhile without really making an account, and I was surprised to find reading only a couple of articles while signed in registered me as a member.

There is a 13 age limit, but honestly young kids will fake their age anyways. A huge amount of dev forum members seek recognition and the forum’s incentive systems make it not much better than a glorified twitter. I barely check forums anymore, only going through to dig up older/actually useful posts.

FWIW the beta user thread is preprocessed by a bot so it’s quicker to deal with for DevRel at high request volume, so they were actually trying to be helpful. The bot expects the format in OP of that topic.

I’m not sure if just their responses were inappropriate or if some response to the message you sent aggravated them before that, but in any case feel free to flag stuff in DMs too if it’s inappropriate. Staff look at those flags too.

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The fact a half-dozen even has the power to have a post flagged and force-edited shows an inherent problem in the system. You say the forums is for everybody then disregard the concerns of people who have first-hand experienced flag abuse. To trivialize others concerns as not ‘real issues’ is not a healthy discussion and will not lead to resolution, only more conflict. It becomes alienating.

The inevitable as I see it: Flagging is a band-aid solution to growing pains and shows the devforum was not nearly prepared for this amount of users. It can’t and won’t hold up to the further expansion of the forums as a means to control low quality posts and mods can’t be on 24/7 to watch abusers like a hawk. Its a disturbance to discussions. It might work if we had an older userbase, but the majority of people on here are fairly young. You were around during the OG devforums. When a lot of the now older users were around 15 or something. It wasn’t pretty. The kind of mentality and behavior many had back then will be amplified.

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One of the small things which I believe is a recent issue in the devforums is the introduction of 30 character limits for posts. Not only is this a barrier, it does more bad than good because small one word answers end up either: a) having to use more words to say “yes” or b) write impractical text at the end of the post to fill the 30 character limit.

This addition is a direct result of the exponential increase of members to the forums, and was never needed beforehand.

Here are some examples of what I am referring to.

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As someone who started as a lurker of the forums in 2015 and eventually becoming a new member with the introduction of the new automated system, I can say the forums are not what I expected.

The main purposes I have for the forums includes #development-support:scripting-support, however I have now grown to use that as a last resort and use things like the Developer Hub and programming Discord servers before going to scripting support.

Don’t get me wrong, many of the top contributors on Scripting Support, such as @colbert2677 are fantastic contributors to our community, however, there are many who feel the need to correct your code (and sometimes it’s not even a valid correction- it’s just their opinion)


The main issue, as highlighted by many people is flagging and moderation.

Flags are a wonderful feature introduced by Discourse. It lets the forum moderators be facilitators for rich discussion, not police officers telling you what to and not do do.

However, with Roblox’s main userbase being users under 13- despite the forums having a 13+ requirement, there are many people who are younger, or who have a language barrier and do not understand the rules.

This can have two impacts:

  1. Bad posts
  2. Misuse of flags
  3. A bit of both: I’ve seen many people who speak little English unintentionally break rules and get flagged into oblivion

If we want to be a welcoming community, we need to ensure that the rules are as clear as possible for everyone.

  1. There needs to be more clarity on some rules
  2. The rules need to be available in other languages, being professionally translated (correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m unsure if they are)
  3. Community members, regardless of language or nationality, need to be given a clear welcome and advise on where to start reading.

Flagging abuse

People have used flags as a weapon or otherwise abused them, intentionally or not.
In my personal opinion, when a flag is handled by a moderator, the user should be told what the moderator thinks (Discourse currently does this, but only for flags where you use Something Else).

Unintentional Abuse

If users were told that the stuff they’re flagging isn’t against the rules, they can then use that and flag better in the future.


Another thing we need is a closer Developer Relations/Engagement team
Apologies if I’m confusing the terms

It’d be fantastic to see Roblox Staff members being active on the DevForum and providing users with feedback, as well as helping the community.

Currently, some people see Developer Relations as police when they shouldn’t be seen as such.


EDIT: I personally find it amusing that @coefficients made this announcement a few minutes after my reply.

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omg this. Even though I’d love to be optimistic and say Scripting Support is a great resource, it’s really not great at all. I’ve used it a bit but I ask 99% of my questions on Discord now. Some people just don’t know what they’re talking about, even if they have the best of intentions :confused:

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Back on the old Roblox forum, it was a dice roll to see how long it took a thread to get taken down by a mod, and it was a problem, to put it lightly. Abusive threads stayed up for however long they did no matter what the contents and I presume that was part of why they got canned.

Having users he able to hide posts like they can with flags is a massive boon. If half a dozen people think something is breaking the rules strongly enough that it should be removed, I would rather it get hidden from non-members than not. I don’t see it as a problem until people start abusing it – at which point they should probably just get their flagging permissions revoked or if that’s not an option just get a normal strike on their devforum account. If that’s not happening, that’s an issue we should be talking about (is it happening @coefficients?) .

I recognize that people have seen flagging abuse but the volume makes it more of a glitch in the system than anything else. In the last 7 days there’s been about 15,000 posts made (via the About page on the devforum). Of those, if even 10% were flagged that’s around 214 flags a day, and I assume DevRel would notice a measurable amount of false flags out of that. As is, it’s a lot less than 10% so the number of false flags has to be much much less.

It’s a noticable annoyance but it’s not exactly a systemic issue.

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I agree certain one-word answers can lead this to be a barrier, but also a lot of the images you posted could’ve been honestly written better. What you posted is more of an example of the abundance of low-quality posts.

For Example:

1st image could’ve been said better such as:
Oh yeah, I forgot. Sorry, my bad. (And example of writing over 13 characters without even knowing the context of that message)

2nd image:
This is actually a better example of how the limit is more of a barrier.

3rd image (definitely low quality and could’ve been so much better):
I have a question, what is the payment?
(Easily made to be 13+ characters with one again no knowledge of the context of this message)

4th image:
I’m sure this could’ve been written better but I don’t have a better example as I don’t know what they were talking about.

5th image: (honestly being this is a ROBLOX staff is just disappointing, no offense)
Sorry to say, this may be around 2020 unfortunately.

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The flagging abuse for many is more described as irritating that some annoyance you can swipe away. It encourages conflict between the community because we are giving a community of a young audience so much power they won’t know how to use responsibly. Do you think the mods can actually manage this on a large scale? Disrupting discussions and making people feel like they are guilty of doing something wrong before its even been reviewed isn’t good either. Surely we can find some middle ground than just ‘hide it from everybody and/or delete it until reviewed’ at least. I can’t see flagging holding up forever. If we plan just for the current size we’ll be right back where we started with growing pains. We need long term solutions.

I was referring to the OG devforums. Back when there was a handful of us on here. We’ve now multiplied people like that by many times.

I do actually believe that the mods can handle this. Discourses’s tools for handling flags are incredibly useful and make it easy enough. Long term, I can’t imagine the volume of flags will increase to the point that DevEngagement can’t handle it. If it does, something has gone terribly wrong with the community and with DevRel for not preparing.

I don’t think the solution to this is getting rid of flags or making them not hide posts. That solves this problem but ignores the obvious benefits of having both.

And yeah I know. I was talking about the original forum to show that having posts hidden by flags is a good thing.

These were just random selections, they werent meant to be up for criticism. I was just outlining the workarounds people use to get around the barrier, not highlighting their grammar.

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I’ve noticed that the international forum recently got divided into their own language forums.

Since I speak Spanish sufficiently (and was already a somewhat-active member of their community), I added myself to the new Spanish Developers group. Doing so gives me access to a whole new category that only people in my group can view/post on:

That is to say that your feedback must’ve played a role in this change…

My only problem so far is that you have to navigate to the ‘groups’ page in order to do that.

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Or just bolden it.

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It was planned for a while before this topic was made, but yes it definitely addresses some of this feedback given here.

Any feedback given by developers in this forum category definitely is taken into consideration in any case. Both DevRel and Sages read this category actively and we discuss almost everything mentioned here internally, that’s why it’s so important to give feedback.

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I feel like a follow up about this in particular might be well received and give you an idea of some of the limitations we face:

We send feedback messages to users who flag posts for the wrong reasons. These aren’t usually malicious, but if flags feel malicious we’ll definitely take action.

That’s part of a bigger problem, though: the sensitivity of the flagging system. We’re currently extremely limited by the forum software in how well we can customize the automatically hide posts based on active flags functionality. The good news is that we’re working on a plugin to change this functionality. The bad news is that we don’t have a good answer in the meantime.


Moving on from that specific subject, I wanted to just reiterate for transparency that we’re going ahead with the focus groups. :slight_smile:

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This is great but even then the problem seems to be more apparent by the day as more members join DevForum. This is more of bandaid solution, it really doesn’t solve the problem that is at the core of this entire situation. That DevForum is incorrectly organized, does not present rules properly to new members, does not specify expectations properly, and has no proper system to teach, help and guide new members. Until this changes for the better and gets solved, I don’t think this problem is being fixed any time soon. In fact, with the growing number of members joining this forum, without a proper system implimented soon, the problem may just get a lot worse.

I heavily agree with the sentiment in the main post, however I think the following two-fold approach would be preferable to that which the OP proposes.


Prefer tags in favor of subcategories.

Currently, topics are generalized via category & subcategory, tags feel almost like an afterthought. Because of this, categories & subcategories have become increasingly specific (Dev. Support; Scripting Support, Building Support, Art Design Support). This is, in my opinion, a misuse of categories; which are supposed to be broad themes that topics under them have in common. And so, the splash page of the forum has become overburdened by the amount of categories and takes on a horribly cluttered appearance

(So much so that I have to zoom out incredibly far to screenshot the entire thing! For ease of readability I’ve labeled each category in a bigger font.)

However, even at a cursory glance we can immediately see that a number of these categories are all very closely related (check how many have “Development” in their name or description.)

As such, I believe that the following categories should be subsumed by the category “Development”, with each of their subcategories collapsed into a more broad subcategory of the “Development” category. From there, tags should be used instead to denote more specific themes of topics posted in these categories.

Were this implemented, the forum’s splash page would look more so like this


Move away from the problem-solution paradigm and instead to a question-answer one.

As many users have stated thus far in this thread, the problem-solution paradigm creates a number of issues:

  • Users, especially those seeking to attain a higher trust level, feel pressured to reply the fastest so that their answer is accepted by virtue of it being the first, functional, answer.
    • This leads to under-developed or even incorrect answers, including answers which don’t actually attempt to solve or, sometimes, don’t even pertain to the topic as a result of the reply-er misinterpreting the question while reading it in a rush to answer.
  • Accepted answers are seen as the end-all be-all answers, which is a fundamentally flawed idea given the open-ended-ness of a lot of questions (especially programming-wise!)

Because of this, I think Q&A topics should instead use a system familiar to that of Stack Overflow and the like, wherein answers may be voted on (and are consequently ordered by their score) by community members. This solves the issue of the race to post first & the closed-ness of the problem-solution paradigm.

Inspiration could be taken from this discourse plugin.


Misc.

These are much smaller solutions to issues I have which I don’t feel are as needed as those listed above.

Misuse of flagging.

Unfortunately, discourse’s flagging system isn’t as granular as one might hope it to be; from my cursory inspection of their API there is no way to change which trust levels can flag & the influence of flags per specific trust levels (aside from # of trust level 3 users needed to block accounts).

However, I think by way of using plugins that interface with things like Google’s Perspective API, the # of flags needed to hide posts could be increased such that it’s harder for posts to be hidden due to the misuse of the flagging feature by new users (to be honest, it kind of bothers me that new users are trusted with ability to report posts, but at the same time are prevented from speaking in the #public category, likely due to a (justified) lack of faith in the decorum of new members; unfortunately as I mentioned above, there is little granularity in terms of flagging permissions).

International Users

Speaking honestly, I think it’s kind of absurd that Int’l has essentially been ‘quarantined’ to its own little box. By doing so, the forum essentially deprives Int’l users from the organization that English-speaking users benefit from. I personally think the Int’l category should be disbanded, and instead an International tag should be introduced.

I also think it would be to the benefit of both Int’l and english-speaking users if a translation plugin (such as “Discourse Translator”) were introduced.

Feature Voting

Lastly, and probably least importantly, I think it’d be cool if a feature-voting plugin was introduced for topics in the #forum-feedback & #platform-feedback categories (which, I think, should be condense to a feedback category with subcategories for client, studio, and the forum/meta, with tags for 'bug’s and 'feature’s & devices (PC, Console, Phone))

RDC

I don’t personally believe RDC necessitates its own category, I think it’s better suited to be a subcategory of Public. Announcements and Q&A could just be pinned topics.


All in all, I think the forum should look like this:

Although it goes without saying: I’m open to suggestions/refinements.

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Thanks for the feedback! Just addressing a few things, but we did read all of it.

We already are working on this. We were hesitant to enable it here because most of the support categories have a lot of questions that don’t really fit the stackoverflow model, i.e. art design support where answers are subjective for about >50% of the topics there, and game design support where it’s more of a discussion than questions and answers.

The discourse-question-answer plugin also isn’t polished that heavily. We need to do some work on it before we feel like we can enable it here.

It’s something we could look into testing on Scripting Support and seeing how that goes.

Unfortunately we have looked into this one but we can’t do it because the cost would be too high.

We already have a voting plugin on the forum, it’s just not enabled in any categories. We’re still thinking about the best way to have people vote for features.

RDC category will be hidden shortly. I think they’re only waiting to post a final topic about some RDC photos, and after that RDC 2019 is a closed book.

In an ideal world (with perhaps a more mature audience / audience that pays more attention to details) this would work like a charm, but in practice here we have seen that users do not have a clue how to tag their topics properly, while they do generally get the subcategory correctly, because it’s more prominently featured in the edit window and on the post.

We can’t really attach semantics to tags, while we can give some pre-formatted text in the edit window related to the category + categories in the edit window have the first sentence of their respective About posts attached to them. This is why subcategories seems superior to me over tags. We can probably reduce the category list further by getting rid of some redundant categories though.

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Ah, that’s good to hear. All the plugins I linked were solely for example, I didn’t actually expect any of them to be integrated (especially due to most of them being under copy-left licenses).

Cost as in literal pricing for the translation APIs? That’s disappointing, but definitely understandable.

I’m familiar with that process, but I think it’d be neat if the RDC category was made into a subcategory of public and left there all year round (with the pins updated for each RDC) to foster discussion about it all-year-round, but it’s not something I have much conviction about.

That’s also disappointing, but not entirely unexpected.

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