Target audience of the forum is not specific enough, introduce tactical barriers for entry

[peraldon (Jed)]

@FxllenCode

I’m still not sure that’s the real issue at hand here; even sorted by quality isn’t the solution to the problems that are facing here. The problem is many posts may be low quality yet may artificially seem as they are high quality due to certain factors such as likes, views, replies, length, etc. (I don’t know what other criteria could be used here).

Feel free to send me a DM, I’d be happy to share examples of what I mean privately.

Thanks for your thoughts! I’m trying to keep what I’m talking about in the abstract because we’re talking about the best approach to solutions, rather than the solutions themselves (as we’re still thinking about this internally). Assuming we can get a correct signal to calculate ‘quality’ (whatever that ends up being), this then wouldn’t be a problem. Were we to pursue this avenue, we’d therefore know that we need to be able to calculate ‘quality’ without users gaming the system. I hope that makes sense.

@FxllenCode

The problem with this is DET/DevRel has seemingly done the opposite of what will help the forum so far, when sages/editors were deprecated, that just took away a group of users who could help clean out these bad posts, and this is no more.

I believe the answer lies in having more, anonymous users to help deal with non-moderation details such as moving threads and changing titles.

Interestingly, I think a centralized team will still have the same long-term scalability issues, no matter if they’re made up of DevRel members, or community members - it’s still a centralized team. This is why I think (emphasis on think, this isn’t indicative of anything) our approach should be to leverage all users of the platform to help highlight ‘quality’ content. Discourse starts to vaguely do this with the likes button, but as you say, this can be gamed by users, and also doesn’t actually really change discoverability of content.

@Fluffmiceter

Will there be actual engineering man hours into modifying the Discourse engine or providing an alternative forum solution entirely?

When I say ‘resources’, I am referring to design, engineering and product, in conjunction with DevRel.

@TheSuzerain

So you are suggesting a possible implementation of some sort of algorithm like a social media platform, but in this case, targeting users by developer experience rather than what users are looking at/liking. This could definitely be an intriguing procedure. However, I question what would decipher one from being an experienced developer compared to an average user.

And while targeting an audience can get more efficient/collaborative responses, it can also limit posts for those who want to make things for the general audience to see. (For example, my open-source nametag to prevent display name impersonation could be limited in views if I was considered an “experienced developer”, and therefore my audience pertaining to experienced developers rather than a general audience). How would we go about this?

So I’m not necessarily suggesting that, as I’m only talking about our approach to solving this. Something like this would go in that direction though, yes - although as you rightfully say, also bring other problems with it. A great example of why we’re making sure in this research phase that we have the best possible solution - something that doesn’t bring other problems along with it.

–

Thanks for all the questions and additional thoughts everyone! Gonna be stepping away from the thread for a bit, but please continue to let your voices be heard. It’s all helpful for us internally as we work out how to resolve these pain points, and ensure DevForum is equally helpful for everyone now, and into the future.

Thanks

[colbert2677 (ImagineerColbert)]

@ItsKoiske

I do hope that program such as the Editor program or Post Approval come back

No thank you. As someone who has been in both this resolves no problems and adds more problems instead. It is also very mentally taxing going through hundreds of requests (a good amount of them were nonsense) and in certain cases receiving rude responses to feedback.

Post approval is not scalable for a forum of this magnitude and it is counterproductive against Roblox’s vision of accessibility which has been mentioned many times including in this thread. Additionally, there’s a lot of subjectivity around post approval - part of which is understanding current ambiguity about forum use. I can count a number of times where one of these three happened:

• I had to ask a Sage for help and they knew what to do.
• I had to ask a Sage for help and they didn’t know, so they gave me a best case scenario.
• I had to interpret rules/category guidelines myself as best as I could to handle a request.

Post approval has been talked back and forth about why it’s bad so I’d rather it be left to those threads. I don’t want to bring this thread too far off topic by going on a drone about post approval, but I just want to make that comment since it was raised in the thread at all.

As for the Editor program, likewise, solves nothing. The only thing we did was recategorise and rename threads to a more appropriate fit. This is a non-solution to the problem that is raised in this feature request and is just meant for SEO/organisation purposes. We still have to flag problems, as do Sages (even if they receive privileges to close threads and more).

[plasma_node]

Thanks for responding to us. I really appreciate that we can finally hear something from Roblox staff since it has kind of felt like they have mostly been out of the picture on the devforum for a while.

I don’t think any of us are directly looking to prevent new developers from having a place to communicate, it’s just that we want to be able to have a place where more serious and advanced developers can have more serious and high quality discussions.

I can understand there are a lot of potential solutions to the issue and that Roblox wants to ensure they make the right decision.

I think the two most important things are to prevent users (especially users who may not actually be developers at all, or may be underage) from posting low quality posts, and to provide a sectioned off space for the more serious and professional developers to have more serious discussions. There would also need to be some form of requirements to be participate in said space. For example, veteran small developers and big time front page game devs should both be able to participate.

That would be beneficial to both experienced developers and to new developers as each would have a place to communicate with each other without, and not have to sift through a tremendous amount of spam.

[pilotjc (BlameLuau)]

Good to know that the team is working on this. I can’t find related and worthwhile topics without coming across an irrelevant post that could be solved with a quick google search.

I think @Fluffmiceter said it best. These types of posts are not bad, but are low quality and especially harmful to #development-discussion.

[plasma_node]

Yes, It’s not just that more experienced developers nolonger have a safe space, it’s that the #development-discussion category is being misused.

75% of the posts (including hidden ones) are spam or useless discussions like “what do you guys think would happen to developers if Roblox deleted X feature”

[pilotjc (BlameLuau)]

I can see devrel’s reasoning in avoiding a large change like this. An elitist attitude is the last thing you want to harbor in a community. This happened in the old forums.

The moderation between the two cannot be compared, but it still is important to realize that any time a post with very little to do with the topic is open, unintentional necroposting tends to happen in large magnitudes.

[plasma_node]

I agree that I don’t want elitist either, but if there were two areas, one for everyone and one for veteran devs (not the badge) regardless of their prestige, that would probably fix the problem. Even if they don’t go with that, at least just instigating posting requirements and getting rid of 70% of what we see would drastically improve quality.

Perhaps community moderation to some degree by more prestigious and vetted users could help.

[metatablecatmaid (metatablecat)]

Us Regulars always used #lounge to get higher quality feedback on discussion, however, due to the fact no one can become a regular, the category has become pretty much dead with very little activity.

It also doesn’t help the category as a whole has a less serious tone to it than #development-discussion, which in itself, isn’t a bad thing, but it ironically results in lower quality responses, the exact same issue that Dev Discussion has.

[posatta (pasta)]

I don’t know that I’d ever have described #lounge as “high quality discussion” or anything. Lounge has been by and large a dumping place for memes, forum games, or casual chatting for as long as I’ve been a regular (admittedly only a few years, but before it went quite this inactive).

[plasma_node]

Great, so the one place serious developers can contribute without interference is also where other serious developers crappost. Lovely

[ProvenData (John)]

@namesriley

However I simply mentioned this because people who are 18+ are not the only ones to be able to gain this information.

As someone who is almost 18 I have access; I’ll grant you that. However, that doesn’t mean younger people will have access to it much-less want to hand it over. I myself am still hesitant to give information like that away.

@namesriley

With rises of breaches on ROBLOX and attacks that allows hackers to view someone’s personal information, I limit my personal information to my own accord very seriously and ensure that details that DO NOT need to be mentioned (such as address, signature, ID#, etc…) isn’t included to when I have to manually verify my identity.

From what I’m getting is you want to avoid using these? If so that’s counterintuitive because those are what can verify you and anything that can verify someones identity can be stolen leading to identity fraud. Not exactly something I want to happen because greedy users want my property.

@namesriley

I think for these kind of methods to work, only the name of the individual and date of birth needs to be mentioned. I don’t think having to display unnecessary things within your Identification such as address and issuing # needs to be added incase fraud is a factor.

Many children and sometimes their parents blatantly lie. This is a problem in my eyes. It opens kids up to a world they are most likely not ready for yet in open difance of COPA Law.

@namesriley

Unique thing about my Drivers License is that in the back it mentions “Under 19 until: DATE MENTIONED ” which I fine could be a very useful factor to verification.

If your license is anything like my South Carolina issued one it’s not too complex. There are no markings over it that can be hard to replicate validating it as a legitimate ID or a very good fake.

Overall I think my use of the web instead of www flagger is a pretty good idea. It may not solve the issue completely but it can help.

[namesriley (riley)]

@ProvenData

As someone who is almost 18 I have access; I’ll grant you that. However, that doesn’t mean younger people will have access to it much-less want to hand it over . I myself am still hesitant to give information like that away.

I live in Canada, New Brunswick. The law for getting a proper government issued ID has no age limit, meaning the age doesn’t matter and you can get ID at anytime.

Obviously there is the risk of security but that’s why I mention that some details that aren’t needed for verification should be blurred to secure your identity.

@ProvenData

From what I’m getting is you want to avoid using these? If so that’s counterintuitive because those are what can verify you and anything that can verify someones identity can be stolen leading to identity fraud. Not exactly something I want to happen because greedy users want my property.

Said this as I previously mentioned, just things you could blur out if the verification service was to use your information. Obviously there are some things that would be required but the things that aren’t mandated you should have a choice to blur just to ensure your security.

Understandably the security factor of identity fraud is there, but companies that secure your information and do not store it, as well as the fact that they likely audit their information quite well, I would believe getting away with it would not be an easy task.

Don’t take my word on that sentence as a fact, it’s simply my own point on it.

Should also mention that when I go to communities that are usually the age of 13+, I see a lot of people who get attacked by people who leak their information, so it’s why I mentioned

@namesriley

With rises of breaches on ROBLOX and attacks that allows hackers to view someone’s personal information

I’ve seen peoples information such as phone numbers, addresses, and names be leaked because of these attackers which is why I also mentioned I would like to limit the amount of verification I would like to provide.

@ProvenData

Many children and sometimes their parents blatantly lie. This is a problem in my eyes. It opens kids up to a world they are most likely not ready for yet in open difance of COPA Law .

And again, a crime that’s illegal. Obviously the “giving a” factor plays into this, however I do believe that showing something proper is really an only secure method to prove your age, as simply giving trust to the user isn’t reliable at all.

@ProvenData

If your license is anything like my South Carolina issued one it’s not too complex. There are no markings over it that can be hard to replicate validating it as a legitimate ID or a very good fake.

My Drivers License has multiple security methods that improved within the last year because of the new licenses and IDs my province gave out.

Our license is quite complex because under the light you can see things you wouldn’t see on a license just regularly viewing it (basically it shows you the outline of the Atlantic Canada provinces).

@ProvenData

Overall I think my use of the web instead of www flagger is a pretty good idea. It may not solve the issue completely but it can help.

Which yeah, I wouldn’t mind providing verification like my ID or License to a trusted service, but obviously I wouldn’t just give out my information willy-nilly.

[namesriley (riley)]

@ProvenData

It opens kids up to a world they are most likely not ready for yet in open difance of COPA Law .

I should also mention that there is no equivalent to COPPA in Canada so living outside the US also poses an even greater risk for me. I’m not sure about other countries so I will not mention those directly, however I fine the responsibility of someone who understands these concepts is the main factor that really plays out on this.

I’d give an example but I fine it would get off-topic quickly.

[Water_Script]

While I do agree with the points made about the DevForum becoming increasingly non-development related by users posting random things, the solutions lack consideration for important community members: new users. The entire point of having an open DevForum is to encourage new users into getting into development and act as a great resource for them. I know that the DevForum has helped me solve so many of my problems just by looking at similar questions or problems other people have posted! It is of the utmost importance to keep it easy for development-related communication among newer members.

@buildthomas

• Use information such as DevEx eligibility / history to promote the right users
• Tie in information about a user’s created games/assets or Studio time

I really can’t agree with that due to not all devs (especially those starting out!) not being able to meet the minimum earned Robux for eligibility or simply by not needing a DevEx account just yet. For example, I mostly develop for fun and practice, not for revenue. I really have no need for a DevEx account so have never bothered with the process of getting one. In addition, what I make in studio should not determine if I can join the forum or not. I think that these are good stepping stones, but need some more thought regarding making sure new users are still able to easily access the forum; the last thing we want is the old application-style DevForum that is closed off to the rest of the world.

@buildthomas

Additionally, Roblox should not stimulate non-developers into discovering the forum ,

To me, this sounds like a horrible solution. Again, new members need to be able to discover this great resource, not be shunned away from it! If we are actively preventing people from finding the forum, what good are we doing to the community?

@buildthomas

• Stop taking non-developer bug reports and feature requests on this forum; defer to customer support
• Rewrite existing About/pinned posts to be extremely short/to-the-point and very clear about the fact that non-developers are not the target audience of this forum

I do like the idea though of making it more clear on the Forum that this is intended for development-related topics and support. This should help some users realize that this is not a replacement for the Roblox Forums for them to chat freely about whatever they like. I also agree with the point of trying to prune off the more non-development requests. I have seen far too often “I know this is the wrong place, but my account was banned.” or “Roblox please help me, I was scammed.” As of now, the best we can do is simply flag the post so it can be hidden and locked.

@buildthomas

• Hide user statistics entirely from user profiles to avoid users farming Likes or other meaningless numbers

The thing I see about user statistics is it helps to show people what is more helpful than other posts or replies. If I get a ton of likes on a post, I know that I have successfully made a good post/reply that is on-topic, helpful, simple, etc.

Like I said, I think that it is finally time to start realizing the major current problems in the forum, I just think that increasing community moderation would be more beneficial.

[Blue_blockhead]

I mostly agree with this, while generally thinking that things should be more lax (than what you said, not than whats in place). Honestly, if there were just some way to prove that you would not go in #development-discussion and make a post just for AMOGUS, but rather actually use the forum for some form of creating on roblox, be it mostly in or out of studio.

tl;dr: yes but less aggressively gatekeep pls

[KristopherVector (Vector)]

@Water_Script

The thing I see about user statistics is it helps to show people what is more helpful than other posts or replies. If I get a ton of likes on a post, I know that I have successfully made a good post/reply that is on-topic, helpful, simple, etc.

I agree with basically all of your points except this one.

Likes/badges/etc. don’t show that you made a helpful on topic post. If anything, you could’ve made a funny haha meme that a bunch of new members who had no idea that this is supposed to be a mature place liked. I see this all too often. People are “gameifying” the forum, whether it be trying to obtain every badge, sniping post positions for a higher chance to get likes, or just making useless meme posts for clout. How many likes someone has, or how many days they’ve visited the forum shouldn’t determine how helpful they are. If someone makes helpful, on-topic posts commonly, then they’ll be known for that.

[buildthomas]

@Water_Script

I really can’t agree with that due to not all devs (especially those starting out!) not being able to meet the minimum earned Robux for eligibility or simply by not needing a DevEx account just yet. For example, I mostly develop for fun and practice, not for revenue. I really have no need for a DevEx account so have never bothered with the process of getting one. In addition, what I make in studio should not determine if I can join the forum or not.

I don’t claim they should use all of these metrics at the same time. They’re example metrics they could use. They could make it so that if you meet just one of these metrics (proven to be 13+, or have DevExed before, or have very significant Studio time) that you are permitted on the forum. Or it could be some complex combination of the metrics. This is not for me to decide, these are just suggestions for metrics (I make no claim about what the aggregation of metrics should be, and other (more useful) metrics may exist that I didn’t think of).

@Water_Script

The thing I see about user statistics is it helps to show people what is more helpful than other posts or replies.

You can do that on a thread-level context. It doesn’t need to exist on a user’s profile as an aggregate over all their posts (see your profile, there are a ton of numbers there that people use to compare against other users currently).

[Bac_Stab (Sentient)]

I’m just thinking at this point the best way to deal with them is just having the punishment for 3 warnings(in X time) be like a month ban from the forums.
You don’t have a constitutional right to posting whatever you want as ROBLOX is not the government and can restrict you legally. I see a lot of people doing that on various forums(“I can say what I want nyaah”)

@Po0k

or to kid-unsafe platforms like discord,

They shouldn’t be on discord as a kid. That’s like saying it’s the rat poison company’s fault if a kid swallows it because it’s unsafe for kids.

@Fluffmiceter

what does your desk and computer setup look like for developing”.

Yes. Please ban these. I’m writing a request at the moment to get them away.

@Sneaksie

I’m down for anything that will stop the “What makes you motivated?” threads and hypothetical scenarios

Yes yes yes. Also like the “what if every object in ROBLOX had mass detailed scientific” this is ROBLOX not physics class we don’t need to talk about something that won’t happen and isn’t happening.

@metatablecatmaid

Im super late to the party but, I like to remain anonymous where possible, so no thank you.

Yep. I’m super sensitive with my privacy online. I tend to give nothing away. The most people know is the country I live in and the language I speak, plus like my specific intrests on the specific forum[s]
Sorry I was late to the party with this response.

@Water_Script

The entire point of having an open DevForum is to encourage new users into getting into development and act as a great resource for them

We shouldn’t entirely have complete newbies on here though.
Considering that most people on here don’t follow internet ettiquette(it’s become quite sad to see lately)

@Spagetti_07

People are “gameifying” the forum, whether it be trying to obtain every badge, sniping post positions for a higher chance to get likes, or just making useless meme posts for clout. How many likes someone has, or how many days they’ve visited the forum shouldn’t determine how helpful they are. If someone makes helpful, on-topic posts commonly, then they’ll be known for that.

Yes. I’ve seen people trying to grind badges for fun. On a forum. Not what it should be.
EDIT: also the what is the/why is the x your favorite/least favorite/most boring/ stuff should be gone.

[Fluffmiceter]

A new developer does not need access to Development Discussion. Development Discussion is for developers to discuss aspects of development. Someone who opened studio a few days ago does not have nearly enough experience to quality as a “developer” who has any worthwhile insight to contribute to a discussion about the development process. How can you talk about your experience with something when you only began doing it a few days ago?

In fact, when a bunch of total amateurs start flooding Development Discussion with awful advice from their three week development career, all it does is confuse other new developers who came to look at what the experts developers were saying. Development Discussion should be exclusive to people who have enough experience to call themselves developers; if a new user wanted to ask someone about something they posted, they can always private message the person and ask.

Keep the support categories open for beginners. Close off Development Discussion from beginners. Boom, 90% of the problem is solved.

[RecanValor (recanman)]

We are not discussing the members’ access to #development-discussion. We are discussing how we should not be letting in new “developers” In this case, opening up studio makes you a developer, also how they just cannot read the rules and are too naïve to understand and abide by it. The members will keep trying to create more topics, perhaps in #help-and-feedback:scripting-support or maybe #gamedesign. Anything they can do to clog up the forum with their useless topics. I believe the standards should be raised higher, and this new PA system should be implemented. We have been waiting a year or so (correct me if I’m wrong) for this said system and nothing has happened while we watch this forum go to chaos just like the old Roblox forums. Knowing your dream limited is irrelevant.

I just have one “solution” most likely irrelevant anyways, just to create a new forum with discourse with higher standards and stuff. It is a pretty useless one but even doing that is better than the crap moderation we have now. Flagging is not enough. Flagging. Is. Not. Enough. I 200% support buildthomas with verification, and if you don’t want to disclose your name, feel free to not be in the forum. It is that simple.

I am just repeating myself, so I will close this now. This is more a rant than a reply, I apologize for that in advance.