Target audience of the forum is not specific enough, introduce tactical barriers for entry

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#149

We are not discussing the members’ access to #development-discussion. We are discussing how we should not be letting in new “developers” In this case, opening up studio makes you a developer, also how they just cannot read the rules and are too naïve to understand and abide by it. The members will keep trying to create more topics, perhaps in #help-and-feedback:scripting-support or maybe #gamedesign. Anything they can do to clog up the forum with their useless topics. I believe the standards should be raised higher, and this new PA system should be implemented. We have been waiting a year or so (correct me if I’m wrong) for this said system and nothing has happened while we watch this forum go to chaos just like the old Roblox forums. Knowing your dream limited is irrelevant.

I just have one “solution” most likely irrelevant anyways, just to create a new forum with discourse with higher standards and stuff. It is a pretty useless one but even doing that is better than the crap moderation we have now. Flagging is not enough. Flagging. Is. Not. Enough. I 200% support buildthomas with verification, and if you don’t want to disclose your name, feel free to not be in the forum. It is that simple.

I am just repeating myself, so I will close this now. This is more a rant than a reply, I apologize for that in advance.

#150

The problem is when a new member makes an awful post or awful reply in Development Discussion, 90% of the time they are not breaking any rules. Their post contributes absolutely nothing of value and just takes up space, but most of them are earnestly writing what they think is good content. I’m not talking about the trolls, the trolls are a byproduct of how bad the forum has become.

When people make posts in the support categories, it is a lot clearer what is and isn’t allowed. For example, in Scripting Support, if your post isn’t related to questions regarding a script, then you can be flagged and removed.

2 Likes
#151

I think this perfectly describes that the majority of users on the platform lack the maturity for a forum in the first place. So, by letting everyone in, the issues that are usually saturated into a singular place or game has now spread to the forums. You can’t really fix this issue without ripping access from a lot of users here so, I’m not sure if those users would be happy about it. Toxic threads are usually made by a small number of people in a pool of a lot of users and ripping away access from the majority of users who didn’t contribute to a toxic thread is both non-inclusive and unfair. A lot of users will grow furious. That’s why this is such a complex issue. In addition, I think everyone has a different idea of what is toxic and what isn’t. It usually comes with age. It’s pretty apparent that the older users here are in the minority which is again, hard to maintain quality from that.

Unity Forum is a poor example; especially in that category. Unity caters to a different demographic in almost all cases where Roblox is a younger audience. As a byproduct, Roblox suffers from maturity issues because the platform as whole is made up of mainly kids. I’ve been on the Unity forum and most of them are adults. Adults talk very different than a child would and the context of what they’re talking about is more technical than an average child would understand.

2 Likes
#152

I guess assuming the current state, sure. But, in the more ideal future where the audience is more targeted to devs, it helps us know what posts are more helpful than others. Especially for newer devs and more novice posters, like me, it is very helpful to know which of our posts are better received.

#153

The problem is not making the restriction, but deciding what metrics guard when the restrictions are lifted for a user. The former is trivial.

Everyone realizes that closing off a section leads to higher quality because you’re limiting the number of people that can post there. The problem to solve is: how does someone who should have access to the categories actually receive that access in a fair and not overly prolonged fashion, and in a way that can be automated so that it doesn’t require manual reviews of each individual forum user’s development history. That’s what this post is about.

3 Likes
#154

True, but I do not think creating a separate topic on a very very similar discussion would please many people, so I am going to hijack the discussion here a bit.

Instead of discussing ways to remedy the issue, why can’t we talk about the root of the problem, the elephant in the room? We all know the problems began when Development Discussion became open for Members to use. The question is, why was this change made to begin with?

Let’s look at the two outcomes of opening or not opening Development Discussion:
First, the case of opening Development Discussion (which is what happened):

  1. Thousands upon thousands of completely unqualified individuals now have access to this category, along with a few dozen developers.
  2. These few dozen developers would not have had access to Development Discussion otherwise, because of the lack of any mechanism to upgrade a Member to a Regular. Now that Dev Discussion is open to Members, however, those qualified individuals can make posts there.
  3. BUT, since qualified developers are so outnumbered by unqualified individuals, in a 10-to-1 or higher ratio, Development Discussion ceases to be a useful resource for both the new qualified developers as well as the pre-existing qualified developers who were Regulars.

Now, the case where Development Discussion is not opened to Members:

  1. Those who are Regulars, who are qualified, have access to Development Discussion. No members are allowed in.
  2. The quality of discussion is great, since only qualified Regulars have access to the channel.
  3. There are a few dozen qualified developers who would have liked to have contributed to Development Discussion, but because they are not Regulars, they cannot do so.

If we compare the two situations, realize that in both cases, the qualified Member-status developer does not get what they wanted. They either don’t have access to the good Development Discussion, or they do have access to the absolutely awful, scum of the earth “Development” Discussion. No matter which option you pick, there is no happy ending where the qualified Member-status developer gets access to the high quality Development Discussion.

But, when you pick the opening option, what you do is completely ruin Development Discussion for the pre-existing developers. You gain nothing and lose A LOT. It is very obvious that the people behind this decision-making did not foresee what would occur, which is understandable, but what they should have done is reversed the decision a few weeks in, before the devforum community became irreparably shattered.

Take this from someone who has been a Member since 2015 and would consider himself more than qualified to be part of this community (applied once, was rejected, missed the chance to apply again before the apps were closed). Locking out Members from Development Discussion is clearly the better choice, once you fully weigh both options. It is a far better temporary solution while we wait for a proper fix, since that allows the devforum to be at least usable for some users, instead of being totally useless for everyone.

2 Likes
#155

Because it is a chewed-out and overused discussion topic.

Your argument boils down to “go back to the original restrictions” but this creates an even bigger problem that there is still no way to get access to the category. The latter has to be solved first.

3 Likes
#156

If #development-discussion were to be locked to regular+, people would just find a new place to post garbage. It’s like locking a porta-potty. The problem’s going to get worse because people will take dumps on the ground instead.

3 Likes
#157

Regulars are not necessarily “qualified” developers, whatever that means. I know of at least one former Regular who was a self-proclaimed non-developer. The Regular rank is just supposed to reflect the ability to properly use the forum, as far as I’m aware.

4 Likes
#158

You did not read my reply then. I do acknowledge that there would be no way to get access to the category, but this is still the best course of action. Why? I will reiterate: Having access to a totally defaced forum is not any better than not having access to a pristine forum.

While we wait for a proper system to be implemented, it makes much more sense to close off Development Discussion again, if you weigh the two sides of the coin. Unusable forum for everyone, or usable forum for some people.

#159

By “qualified”, I mean someone who can contribute to the forum in a positive way.

#160

Just to be clear, in this feature request I am asking for a proper system. I’m not asking them to rush by first closing down categories and then figuring it out much later. The latter is only short-term benefit at the expense of an ever-growing community of new developers who do come here with mature / good intentions to be blocked for who-knows-how-long.

3 Likes
#161

Yes, but what I am saying is there is nothing to be gained from having access to Development Discussion in its current state. Spending an ounce of time reading through the nonsense posted on Development Discussion is only detrimental to the growth of both beginner and experienced developers.

There are other categories which are immensely beneficial for new developers, such as Scripting Support, and those should always be open to Members.

It’s been months, and it will likely be several more months (given that they are only in the planning stages of a devforum overhaul) before the devforum becomes usable. We absolutely should put up a temporary solution to salvage what can be salvaged in the mean time.

2 Likes
#162

Yes that’s the point I was making
Discord is literally the only other option after the devforums, and the wiki, which is unsafe but that’s exactly what happens.

#163

But, there is no current way for a Member to rank up to Regular. You are effectively dividing the DevForum and blocking those who do take it seriously.

2 Likes
#164

Wouldn’t this mean that #bulletin-board goes out the window?

#165

Yep, that should live on the site as discussion forums / announcement pages on games pages and on groups. It’s a hack that this should exist on the developer forum to begin with, and was only made as a makeshift solution when they shut down the old Roblox forum.

Example of a feature request that accomplishes the above:

Example for groups:

7 Likes
#167

I think that’s the issue. The Unity community is consisted of more mature developers and the age framework is completely different. Here in Roblox, it seems like many people lack this type of maturity, cause they simply don’t want to behave, something that needs to be changed immidiately.

3 Likes
#169

Okay, and what would you rather see? If you look at the thread and it seems useless, why go into it?
If you’re looking for something specific (like EgoMoose’s cool new stuff) there are specific subforums for it. What do you want out of Developer Discussion? For it to be the HackerNews of Roblox? I’m sorry, but Roblox is a game and game development platform designed to be kid-friendly - you aren’t going to get HackerNews quality threads.

1 Like
#170

I find some topics on #development-discussion pretty meaningful and interesting, and I find worth replying to. But when I keep running into topics like these mentioned above, it’s hard to contain yourself.